Dipstick problem

[paintman]

I'm having agro over my dipstick and tube on the pinto engine in my Hood!

3 times I've had the dipstick shear off;   once when I got the car it was broken off, then a year or so after that it
snapped, then after I had the engine rebuilt it went again!

What I did the first few times was to cut off the dipstick tube top to lower the oil level mark.....as long as there was a couple
of inches of dipstick going into the sump no probs.

As you have probably guessed I've run out of dipstick metal!! ........ as I lower the tube the pressure increases on the
tube and starts forcing out the cut-off shortened dipstick so I now need to start again!

Trying to find a decent pair is getting hard to do, I've checked out the rubbish on ebay and the non genuine one at
Burton Power is the best part of £40 which is ridiculous!

I tracked down a genuine new tube and I recon I can get a similar dipstick to complete the pair but what I need to know
is the distance from the top of a standard tube to the highest oil level on the dipstick......this can be easily be done by
measuring from the top stop on the plastic handle to the highest oil level mark on the dipstick!

Can anyone help with the measurements or have any bits about the garage I can purchase.

    Cheers, Tony

[longtimecoming]

If you drain all the oil out of the sump and put the correct amount, for an oil change, without draining the filter back in that will give you the Max level. Take away the amount to top up from min level, usually 1ltr,  and mark the new dip stick accordingly and presto all done.

[benchmark51]

When you sort a dipstick out, don't leave it in the tube.Cap the tube off and clip the dipstick somewhere else.

[paintman]

If you drain all the oil out of the sump and put the correct amount, for an oil change, without draining the filter back in that will give you the Max level. Take away the amount to top up from min level, usually 1ltr,  and mark the new dip stick accordingly and presto all done.

That's what the trouble is......not sure now they fitted a larger cut-off sump and I've added a
Oil cooler and extra pipes!!

Need to start from scratch with the correct marks on the dipstick that were there from standard.

Its only the bottom of the dipstick that's cut off so the oil level is always the same in the sump.

Good idea about leaving the dipstick off though!!😏

[paintman]

Surely someone in the club has a Pinto under the bonnet??

I desperately need a couple of measurements to get my dipstick sorted......PLEASE,....Pretty Please.....

    1.   Measurement of the tube from the top....where dipstick sits, to the base of the tube where it joins the engine.

    2.   From the plastic "stop" above the "o" ring on the Yellow plastic dipstick handle to the Max and to the Min marks. 

    or..... On the older type of "all metal" dipstick......from the top stop (where it meets the tube) to Min and Max marks.

  Would be greatly appreciated.....

[benchmark51]

 Found this on a posting on that subject, that I found on the web. Try typing pinto dipstick into your browser.

Tube on mine is approx 225mm and marks are 360 and 380 down if that makes sense.

[Robert]

sorry mine got a cut down sump, so the measurement probably not going to help 

[paintman]

That won't make a difference......mines cut down as well.

The marks and length of the tube is the same as standard, the dipstick bottom is cut off for the shortened sump.....the oil level won't change what ever size it is.

Can you measure them for me please......😊

.    Tony

[Robert]

I've just measured as per pictures, hopefully this will help you. (They're a bit dark but should come up fine)

[Robert]

just one more

[Facial Hair Optional]

Surely someone in the club has a Pinto under the bonnet??

I desperately need a couple of measurements to get my dipstick sorted......PLEASE,....Pretty Please.....

    1.   Measurement of the tube from the top....where dipstick sits, to the base of the tube where it joins the engine.

    2.   From the plastic "stop" above the "o" ring on the Yellow plastic dipstick handle to the Max and to the Min marks. 

    or..... On the older type of "all metal" dipstick......from the top stop (where it meets the tube) to Min and Max marks.

  Would be greatly appreciated.....

I have a 2 litre pinto in my Tiger, it has the metal dipstick though not the plastic one.

I will measure for you tomorrow if you still need the measurements Tony?

Sorry atm everything is taking me 3 times as long as normal 

[Facial Hair Optional]

That won't make a difference......mines cut down as well.

The marks and length of the tube is the same as standard, the dipstick bottom is cut off for the shortened sump.....the oil level won't change what ever size it is.

Can you measure them for me please......😊

.    Tony

Exactly, I seem to recall I started a topic thread on shortened sump oil levels ages ago and how many people change the oil level marks on their dipstick when they shouldn't! The oil 'quantity/volume' may change if the sump changes or you add an oil cooler etc but the oil 'levels' never do.

The minimum level mark is there to ensure the oil is deep enough for the oil pump to scavenge and recycle it and the maximum level is there to be low enough to avoid the oil hitting the crank and getting whipped up into froth (basically!)

If you shorten a sump they are usually widened (add wings!) to compensate for any oil volume loss and hence maintain the cooling ability of the oil (that should save whomever trying to find that old topic!)

[paintman]

Thank Robert for the pics.....very useful.

Thanks for replying FHO, if you could measure the Tiger dipstick it too would be very useful as a double check....just
measure the Tube length to the engine, then measurement from the stop to the Max and the stop to the Min mark.

I bet there will be a difference between the two, there was evidently at least 4 lengths of pipe used over the years
from Cortina....Capri and obviously Sierras!

Thanks again for all your help.

[Facial Hair Optional]

Hi Tony. I'm afraid due to the twin Webers being in the way and it being so dark in the lock up (no light or power!) I was not able to measure the tube itself, I couldn't really properly see where it joined the engine. I did notice though that the tube is very curved, I suspect it has been altered to avoid fouling on the underneath of the carbs maybe? Is your tube straight?

The length from the dipstick stop to the TOP of the max oil level mark was 370mm and to the min oil level mark 397mm. Hope this helps a little. If you are really stuck on the tube length let me know and I will take a mate, a light and a flexible sewing type tape measure and I'm sure I can get a measurement on the tube for you!

[paintman]

No probs.....the tube is naturally curved so if you have 5 mins in the week?..... :

Thanks for the measurements so far, there's 15mm difference between yours and Roberts to the Max mark,  if the
tube is the same length as his!

We'll know when you get round to measuring the tube for me....

Thanks a lot,  Tony

[Robert]

Don't know if it helps but mine is a std 2 L pinto from a 1979  before the work was carried out   

[benchmark51]

Trouble is the pinto was used in several different vehicles and I think 3 or 4 different dipsticks. I have a 205 block pinto ready for Ratbag, just haven't got round to using it yet. It has a shortened sump and at the moment no dipstick or tube. The lower part of the sump was cut off, but I allowed for the loss of capacity by adding some capacity toward  the front. (no wings on the side). Inside the oil level is covered by a steel plate to keep oil away from washing the crankshaft. Beneath the plate are baffles and the shortened pickup pipe goes through a hole in the plate and more holes in the plate to allow oil to return to the sump. It was a while ago I did this, but I satisfied myself that the standard amount of oil, 3.7 litres inc filter would be ok. Once filled I intended making a dipstick myself. Burtons sell them, but a bit steep.

[paintman]

My sump is also fully baffled-out and a complete new bottom the full length of the sump has been welded on.

Not sure what the full capacity is.....I was told 4.5lt with the filter but I'm sure I never put that amount in last oil change.

[SPAXIMUS]

I may be missing something here, but why does it keep breaking? Is it getting hit in the sump or is it breaking with vibration?

As for the oil level, was the sump shortened or just extended? If it is extended then just do a rough volume increase and add that to what is recommended in the Haynes manual, 4.5 litres sounds about right.

If it has been shortened, I would fill it off the car until it was level with the top of the baffle. Any more than that and you will get the crank hitting it and froth it up.

Refit and make sure the dipstick is not being forced over, looking at the size of the hole it is unlikely. Refill and then see where it ends up.
On my first Westfield it had a shortened cast sump and the volume was eaxactly the same as it was extended in the casting. All I needed to do was shorten the length of the stick so it was clear of the bottom and the marks were the same as before.

just add .25 of a litre for the oil cooler and pipes.

[paintman]

Think it breaks due to vibration as the dip stick was touching the sump bottom.

I don't want to take the sump out if I can help it....just fit original pipe and shortened original dipstick and there won't
be problems with the amount of oil in the new sump.

None of my mods will make any difference and there is plenty of oil in it..... 4 litre+.

[SPAXIMUS]

I cut mine off just below the minimum marker and it never broke.

[benchmark51]

Think it breaks due to vibration as the dip stick was touching the sump bottom.

I don't want to take the sump out if I can help it....just fit original pipe and shortened original dipstick and there won't
be problems with the amount of oil in the new sump.

None of my mods will make any difference and there is plenty of oil in it..... 4 litre+.

No, I wouldn't disturb the sump either. All I was going to do with mine was fit a tube, insert a rod or any dipstick long enough to hit the bottom of the empty sump, mark the rod at the top of the tube and fix a stop on the rod. Fill the sump with the correct amount of oil, run engine to fill the filter. Turn off, wait 5 mins and dip for the level. Mark the level on the rod as max, calc the min level 1 litre below the max and mark. Then cut off an amount to ensure it wont touch the bottom of the sump. I reckon I would be safe with that method.

[Facial Hair Optional]

Why would it touching the bottom of the sump cause it to break though, is it some kind of vibration induced stress fracture?

[SPAXIMUS]

My guess would be that as it is too long it bends and then hits the side of the hole it goes through. In any engine there is a lot of vibration, which we do not feel as the mountings isolate them. Just stick a screwdriver to your ear whilst the engine is running and touch the block and the vibration will be clear.

[Facial Hair Optional]

I'm glad I read that twice, 1st time round I thought you said stick a screwdriver IN you ear!!! 

[Iancider]

I'm glad I read that twice, 1st time round I thought you said stick a screwdriver IN you ear!!! 

Yes indeed this must be done with some care.  Traditionally it is done by placing the handle of the screwdriver to your temple BUT beware that your engine has a stable tickover and firm engine bearers or you will SMASH YOUR SKULL, PULVERISE YOUR BRAIN and die.   

That was a health and safety warning on behalf of Her Majesty's Government.

Back to Dipsticks - the type for dipping oil, not the ones that SMASH THEIR SKULLS AND PULVERISE THEIR BRAINS!!! 

[SPAXIMUS]

If you get it wrong and mash your head, it is Gods way of saying you should not be driving

[Facial Hair Optional]

Love it lads, very funny!!! 

[Facial Hair Optional]

Hi Tony. I'm afraid due to the twin Webers being in the way and it being so dark in the lock up (no light or power!) I was not able to measure the tube itself, I couldn't really properly see where it joined the engine. I did notice though that the tube is very curved, I suspect it has been altered to avoid fouling on the underneath of the carbs maybe? Is your tube straight?

The length from the dipstick stop to the TOP of the max oil level mark was 370mm and to the min oil level mark 397mm. Hope this helps a little. If you are really stuck on the tube length let me know and I will take a mate, a light and a flexible sewing type tape measure and I'm sure I can get a measurement on the tube for you!

Measured the tube now, 240mm BUT....... I have a load of sealant aorund the tube where it joins the block so that will not be 100% accurate I'm afraid.

[paintman]

[quote author=Facial Hair Optional link=topic=4548.msg49681#msg49681 date=1455208

Measured the tube now, 240mm BUT....... I have a load of sealant aorund the tube where it joins the block so that will not be 100% accurate I'm afraid.

Many thanks.....interesting result though!

Your tube is 10mm longer than my other example and the max mark is also 10mm higher......which works out exactly
the same to the oil level (max).......RESULT

[Facial Hair Optional]

Excellent!

[benchmark51]

wunderful

[Moleman]

So you have all sorted now then?  Good to hear it mate.

[paintman]

Should be sorted now.....got a new tube ordered and a new dipstick to cut down now i'm satisfied I have
the correct levels.

Dixie came up with a new way of checking the oil level in relation to the crankshaft.....i'll leave it for him to do it
for me though ...... keyhole surgery of the sump!!!!

What he said he would do is put a tiny camera, complete with lights down the dipstick tube and take a look at
the crank shaft and the oil level.....it's connected to a laptop to view the camera pics.....should be interesting!!

[Facial Hair Optional]

That's a cool idea, I wonder how much gap you need to leave between the crank lowest point and the oil though to allow for any sloshing about during driving and/or surge on bends etc?

Anyone any ideas?

[benchmark51]

27.3mm

[paintman]

No, that's to much!

26.84mm I recon.

[paintman]

The actual measurement is pretty close to the crank:


The 4-Cylinder Engine Short Block High-Performance Manual: ...:

    Sectioned diagram of a sump with the crankshaft swing clearly shown, the ... and oil level in relation to the crankshaft (minimum 1⁄4-3⁄8in/6-9mm clearance). ... and the tray is 1⁄4in/6mm away from from the maximum swing of the crankshaft.

I would have guessed at more like 3/4".

[benchmark51]

Ahh but, you need to add the thick gasket and half a pound of sealer. 😃

[paintman]

Yea ......3/4" would be safer......just read the reprocussions of over filling the sump......scary to say the least!