Pondering Zetec upgrade

[Lucky Ed]

Having done three trackdays without breaking anything, I feel the need to get the spanners out again

I'm thinking of porting the head and fitting high lift cams, but if I do that I really need to up the rev limiter to get the most out of the cams, but the problem is I've got an Alpha Weber ECU and they are notoriously difficult to reprogramme. I spoke to MEK in Cheltenham today who are authorised dealers, and even they are unsure if they can do much with it and will get  back to me soon.

If I'm stuck with the standard 6500rpm limit, is it going to be worth the time and expense for what I'm going to gain. The current set up is still pretty good, and the engine has loads of grunt but just lacks a little top end. At the last couple of trackdays I was able to keep up with Dave Doom over a lap, he would pull away from me on the straights but I could make up the ground under braking, so the car ain't slow by any means. The old silvertop was properly set up at Circuit Motors and was putting out 153 bhp and the new engine is better, so I would guess it's about 160 bhp as it stands.

I could just leave it all alone and get the carbs set up again for the new engine or go the whole hog - what does anybody think
I think my next step is to speak to Raceline again to see what my options are as I really don't want the expense of changing the engine management just to alter the rev limiter

['The Gaffer']

Ed, if you have the money to invest, I'd say go for it

Nothing quite like a few more horses.

PS. Many thanks for your club donation and continuing support

[Iancider]

Ed,

A blacktop with Jenvey throttle bodies and an OMEX ECU is good for 170BHP and more can be extracted but Moleman has gone for a Dunnel Duratec for serious horesepower.  The Honda S2000 looks like the highest power yield with reliability but it needs serious cooling.  Have you considered a supercharger yet? 

Regards
Ian

[robp]

I'm thinking of porting the head and fitting high lift cams, but if I do that I really need to up the rev limiter to get the most out of the cams, but the problem is I've got an Alpha Weber ECU and they are notoriously difficult to reprogramme.

I really don't want the expense of changing the engine management just to alter the rev limiter

If you're having head and cams done then IMHO you've got to get the ECU sorted too.  You're going to need a remap after the engine changes anyway so the cost of a new (or used) ECU is a smaller percentage of the overall cost.  Seems a shame to limit yourself to 6500rpm with, what will be, a rev happy engine.

[Hairy Santa]

my thoughts

http://www.google.co.uk/aclk?sa=L&ai=CkdQNRG2wUoq7KYaJ7gbt9YC4BKrMsasEsuXKkogBwrjXweUBCAUQAigFUKDJ6Zr4_____wFgu8aag9AKyAEHqQIi4YA4PV-7PqoEJ0_QNO38bEzeSoZ6kAiCoaBuGbjHELTJVAs1Q1OuS4T0xkmgfwDE0roFEwjy_bH6yLe7AhXlVtsKHRVOAPnABQXKBQCgBiaAB-Kl4xyQBwPgEsOCza-4y4u2HQ&ei=RG2wUvLLJuWt7QaVnIHIDw&sig=AOD64_0cJCS8dVtTtv1S2pB19lm4M9I7iQ&ctype=5&rct=j&frm=1&q=nitrous+kits&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQvhc&adurl=http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-134428-41853-0/2%3Fipn%3Dicep%26icep_id%3D67%26mtid%3D1673%26kwid%3D1%26crlp%3D36470774346_563391%26icep_item_id%3D231074370035%26itemid%3D231074370035%26icep_meta_categ_id%3D131090%26icep_etrs%3DN%26icep_epid%3D-999%26icep_ctlg%3D-999%26icep_cond%3DNew%26targetid%3D61609466946%26rpc%3D0.03%26rpc_upld_id%3D23858%26device%3Dc%26icep_msku_flag%3Dn%26icep_cbt%3Dn%26adtype%3Dpla

go on,you know you want to

[Lucky Ed]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I'm still waiting to hear if I can remap the ECU I have, which ever way I'll probably crack on with the head & cams anyway and see what I can get out of it on carbs, and then maybe upgrade the ECU and change to TB's in one go when funds allow. On the cam front, Kent tell me that their 285 competition cam will fit without piston mods (powerband 3000-7500) - is this going to be a step too far and make the car run like a dog - any thoughts?


Santa - nice to see you're as bonkers as ever

['The Gaffer']

As with any engine upgrade there comes the the power vs reliability syndrome. I don't pretend to know how far you can push your engine Ed but I like your staged plan.

[stevel]

Ed, I am sure you have done your homework and I know we have had these conversations before.  285 cams are not that wild and seem the most popular route but need head work to get the most out of them.  DIY porting is not recommended on the Zetec head and apparently without a flow rig is pointless.  Most CNC heads are around £1000 to £1500 plus the cams plus the shimming as Blacktop is solid lifters as opposed to the hydraulic lifters on silvertop.  Most people are seeing 200 bhp with that set up.  I really do not know about the Webcon limiter.  I am running Megajolt which is a low cost solution and very easy to program but you will need an old laptop with serial port and not all RR like them.  Otherwise Omex is well supported at most places but will be bigger bucks.  200 bhp is achievable on 45s but TBs will always give you ultimate control over fuelling with a smoother delivery but again this is a lot more outlay and will effect which ECU you go for along with pumps, swirl pot and tank modifications may give an extra 5 bhp also and more mpg if you care!
If it were me I would be intrigued to get it on the RR and actually see what you are getting first.  With some chokes and jetting you should be seeing around 165 ish.  So for 35 bhp you must be looking at a £3000 bill plus?  Is there any way of making the car lighter as that is also an option in the equation.  Santa can definitely give you some tips as long as you like the cheese grater look of holes in everything and do not forget to cut all your bolts down!
You can tell I am still off work from this extremely long post......

[stevel]

Whilst lying on my back just had a google and apparently Webcon Alpha can be sent back to them to have limiter changed cost is around £50 plus shipping plus Vat.

[Lucky Ed]

Whilst lying on my back just had a google and apparently Webcon Alpha can be sent back to them to have limiter changed cost is around £50 plus shipping plus Vat.

Steve, Sorry to hear you're still laid up, but it's an extreme way to get out of the Xmas shopping

Thanks for the above on Webcon, where did you find the info? It would be a big step forward if I can get the limiter changed, then I can go ahead with the engine work knowing I can just pop back to Circuit Motors for a final Carb/Cam setup on their RR, as they did a really good job on it last time.

The Kent cams I was recommended are actually longer duration than I stated and are 297/284 and will need stronger valve springs. I'm going to try Piper cams next as they have a similar spec cam, but use std springs which will save a few bob. I have spoken to a local machine shop and they say they have had some good results on porting Zetec heads in the past, matching the inlet manifold at the same time - and they only want £180 so I've got nothing to lose

Being a tight git I'm reckoning on about £1200 for the lot, and for that I should see around 180 bhp, if not a bit more, but time will tell. I've yet to make up my mind so it might even stay as it is yet

Hope you're up and about soon, I'm sure you'll be able to get out of bed to eat your Xmas lunch

[stevel]

Hi Ed

Frustrating aswell as painful, definitely getting there but too slow for my liking.  This is an old post but hopefully the Webcon address is still valid http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=29875 .  Another more recent http://forums.tigerownersclub.co.uk/post/Weber-Alpha-tuning-6065291

£180 for a porting seems an absolute bargain.  I would still be curious what it is giving in its standard form with a proper jetting.  You could always keep your new head and get a secondhand one ported just in case it all goes Pete Tong.

Good luck Ed.

['The Gaffer']

Here's to a speedy recovery stevel.

[stevel]

Thanks Phil

Definitely on the mend, need to be able to get back in the Tiger for Spring!

[Moleman]

hope your better soon Stevel?  How about April for Abingdon mate? 

[Lucky Ed]

I'm making progress on the upgrade front. My ECU as just returned from Webcon, where it has been reprogrammed to suit the new blacktop engine with high lift cams, and the rev limit has been raised to 7200 rpm soft/7400 hard cut. Thanks to the heads up from SteveL it's turned out to be a very cheap option compared to a new ECU and loom.

The new Kent cams, followers, springs and vernier pulleys have been sourced from various places on the net to keep the cost down. All the competition cams need solid followers as the larger lobes might displace the shims that are on top of the OE ones. The valve clearance is made up with a top hat shim that sits on top of the valve stem, these have to been machined to suit. I've had to buy a Cometic head gasket which is thicker than standard to give sufficient piston/valve clearance.

All of these goodies, the head and inlet manifold have been dropped of at Bowden Engineering in Patchway today, who are going to port the head, match the manifold and perform the tedious task of machining the shims to fit the new cams. This Father & Son operation really know their stuff, are a pleasure to deal with and turn out high quality work at fraction of the price of other places. I should get it all back in about a week and can then set about rebuilding it, which will give me a chance to use my new dial gauges to get it timed up

FUN FUN FUN

[Moleman]

Nice one Ed. My mates garage use them all the time. 

['The Gaffer']

Looking forward to the results Ed.

[Iancider]

Ed,

This is looking like serious commtiment - impressed!

Ian

[stevel]

Hi Ed, glad the Webcon tip worked out for you.  It sounds like 200bhp is well within your sights now, maybe more with the higher lift cams.  Good luck with it and keep us posted.

[Lucky Ed]

Hi Ed, glad the Webcon tip worked out for you.  It sounds like 200bhp is well within your sights now, maybe more with the higher lift cams.  Good luck with it and keep us posted.

Thanks again for the heads up Steve

Are you up and about again now?

[stevel]

Happy to help Ed.  Back on my feet and getting around but slower than I would like but I am not the patient type.  Keep taking the pills, doing the exercises and pay the Chiropractor.

[Lucky Ed]

I have now got my head back from Bowden Engineering. They have done a fantastic job porting, polishing and matching the inlet manifold to the head. They encountered some problems installing the inlet cam, as the lobes were so tall they hit the side of the head just below where the rocker gasket sits and wouldn't rotate, so this had to be machined as well. This was a bit of a bugger as they only found out once all the valves had been reassembled and the followers and shims had been done, so it all had to come apart again. With the cams having this much lift I'm a bit concerned about piston/valve clearance so I am going to dummy build it over the weekend, putting some plasicine on top of the piston to see what clearance I've really got. Kent Cams say it will be OK but I don't trust them after they said everything would fit without further machining.





I'm really chuffed with the work that they've done, they're great guys and didn't moan when the job was going pear shaped and would highly recommend them.
Off to see if I can pinch some Play Doh from a mates lad to see if that will do the job

[Moleman]

Looking good Ed. 
Be careful about grabbing the play Doh. Kids today can be very aggresive these days. keep the bike running before you do for a quick getway! 

['The Gaffer']

That is well and truly shiny, hope there are no problems with it.

[Hairy Santa]

good looking job mate 

[Daley Down Under]

Looks fantastic

[Iancider]

You could go up a piston size or is that just plain boring?   

Sorry couldn't help that one

[Lucky Ed]

I have finally got my engine up and running after having a few problems getting the timing right. The valve to piston clearance is really tight on the inlet cam, having only 5 degrees of swing on the cam either way before contact so it needs to be bang on to be safe. The problem really lies with the OE belt tensioner, the self adjusting spring is too weak and whilst all is OK going clockwise, but going backwards the valves hit the pistons. Under normal running it might not cause a problem but Kent Cams said that there would be too much slack when lifting off the power at high revs causing the cam timing to be wildly out (at least 20 degrees by my calculations!) and advised fitting a fixed tensioner.

I had a trawl around the net and the only one I found was £100 and the company weren't even picking the phone up. Luckily a mate who was doing a bit of work on my sons car had a look, and donated a pulley off an Astra VX220 - it worked a treat, albeit by chopping the pointers off it and making the tab fit so that the whole thing doesn't rotate. Now I just rotate the tensioner backwards so the spring is taken out of the equation and hey presto one high quality fixed unit.

With it all timed and locked up I was a bit more confident starting it up for the first time. On start up it rattled, popped and banged and I nearly shut it off, but the strict running in instructions were to run it at least 3K rpm for a min of 20 mins so I persevered, over time it started to settle down and I had time to cure the air leaks that were causing some of the misfiring. By he end it was running OK, a bit lumpy at idle, but it now has the most impressive rasp to the induction noise and seems to be very rev happy.

Took it for a quick blast this afternoon and it appears to be pretty rapid even with the wrong chokes and jets in, so will be off to get it set up on the rollers at Circuit motors ASAP - can't wait to see what its pumping out

[Moleman]

Nice one Ed. 
Make sure they strap the rear end down so that it pulls the car onto the rollers so you don't get a false reading. The first place I went too didn't do it so I ended up with all sorts of problems. 
I had mine done by Dave at Interpro in thornbury. They sorted mine out in the end. They were very good to me. 

['The Gaffer']

 Nice one Ed

[Daley Down Under]

Looking like a GOOD result 

[Lucky Ed]

Booked in at Interpro, Thornbury next Monday as the rolling road at Circuit Motors is broken, and will be for some time.

[Daley Down Under]

Booked in at Interpro, Thornbury next Monday as the rolling road at Circuit Motors is broken, and will be for some time.

And a good choice of rolling road - Dave Griffiths will work his magic

[chris61]

Booked in at Interpro, Thornbury next Monday as the rolling road at Circuit Motors is broken, and will be for some time.

they're one of my customers i see on a monday, i might even get to here it howling if time it right

[Lucky Ed]

Booked in at Interpro, Thornbury next Monday as the rolling road at Circuit Motors is broken, and will be for some time.

they're one of my customers i see on a monday, i might even get to here it howling if time it right

You'll need to be there early, I'm first on at 8.30

[chris61]

Booked in at Interpro, Thornbury next Monday as the rolling road at Circuit Motors is broken, and will be for some time.

they're one of my customers i see on a monday, i might even get to here it howling if time it right

You'll need to be there early, I'm first on at 8.30

I usually get there about 1-2pm, so I hope (in a nice, no car trouble way)  I don't see you!

[Iancider]

Did Colin break the rolling road putting 250 BHP+ through it?   I think Colin said he skidded off on a static test! 

[Moleman]

Not guilty Ian. 

[Lucky Ed]

I've just had a very productive morning at Interpro. The guys there were very welcoming and knowledgeable and I even got a nice cup of tea on arrival. Dave checked through the car and soon had it on the rollers, and with new main and air jets installed the engine made a very healthy -

227.5 bhp!!! ..... RESULT That equates to 380 bhp/tonne

I should be able to do some real damage with that....

[Hairy Santa]

Oh yes, that is gonna be quick