Engine change question

[Dibbler]

I have a VW based kit car and I want to do an engine swap.

Now this is where it gets a bit silly...

I got given the car as a project & it hasn't turned a wheel under its own power since the late 80's

As it stands it has the VW transaxle flipped over (the crown wheel is also flipped) so the transaxle is facing the wrong way (toward the front). Bolted to this is a Hewland adapter plate & bolted to that is a xflow ford engine.

The original owner was about foot shorter than me & had short legs, the engine is so far forward I cannot drive it as it stands as my knees are close to my ears

So I figure I could return it to WV spec, but he made the change because with that little weight, it wanted to step the back out all the time.

Or I could go radical.

I figure if I remove the trailing arms of the suspension and the engine/gearbox setup, I could graft something in its place, something that has a complete sub frame the holds the engine, gearbox, dif & most importantly the rear suspension.

So the big question, does anyone know of a car that has all that, at a sensible price?

Maybe an MR2, fiat X19, or possibly a front wheel drive that I can convert by locking the steering, whatever it is, I'm looking to graft it to the back of the beetle chassis as 1 lump.

Note: it MUST include all the connections for the suspension as bolting suspension components to fiberglass is frowned upon in the SVA test that fill probably follow.

Before you ask, yes I am certifiably mad & no this isn't my first project.

[benchmark51]

It is a bit difficult to picture. How about some pictures of what you have?
I'm thinking bike engine? Renault/Ford perhaps. Making a rear frame?

[Moleman]

Hi & welcome. 
Like benchmark said it is hard to picture it from descriptions alone. Try putting on some pictures, maybe tell us abit more about yourself so we can help. 

[garry h]

Hi and welcome sounds interesting im sure you will get lots of answers and suggestions 

[Iancider]

Yep, agree with all of that - it does sound radical and fun. 

You are right you cannot attach suspension to fibreglass - that is a specific IVA failure.  Some pics would really help.  You will probbly only achieve a Q registration plate because there will not be enough of an original donor to gain an age related plate but I'm guessing that wont bother you.  MR2 and the X19 both sound like good donors for what you are trying to achieve but as far as I recall they both rely on the monocoque for suspension mounting so you would need to fabicate equivalent mountings.  There are loads of  kits out there that use MR2 donors - mainly Ferrari replicas so it should be easy to find on-line builds that will give you ideas for solutions.  I'm looking forward to this. 

And your final point - don't worry about it being nuts - it is what makes kit car builders really interesting! 

PROOF     Sane = no kit car = dull and boring
                Mad = kit car = really interesting
                Totally mad = compulsive repetitive kit car builder and an exciting oddball personality

[bluehornetrider]

How light are you looking to get, an old fiat 126 would be rear engined or a bike engined car like mini or smart do. Could use an old beetle or find a porsche 911 with front end damage.

[Dibbler]

Here you go, photos I already had kicking around.

here is a link to a site that has my car featured on it, it has a bit more background to the car.

http://priceofhistoys.com/2008/07/23/embeesea-chepeko-charger-series-oddity

As far as I can tell, it is one of very few, if not the the very last of its kind.

[Dibbler]

You are right you cannot attach suspension to fibreglass - /color]

I was being flippant when I said that by the way 

[Dibbler]

How light are you looking to get, an old fiat 126 would be rear engined or a bike engined car like mini or smart do. Could use an old beetle or find a porsche 911 with front end damage.

The car used to be a total handful with the beetle engine, it used to step out all the time due to a lightweight body & all the weight hanging out the back. That's why the mid engine conversion to xflow ford was done (formula ford setup apparently)

I'm not looking for power, frankly its a death trap so I am looking to keep the speeds (and the risks) lower (and add a roll hoop behind the driver & under the dash) ~ 100bhp should be more than adequate for a car of its weight.

I considered a bike engine (I have bikes & cars) but its fitting in a diff & an engine that worries me space wise.

I think a 1.8 front wheel drive engine (fiesta et al) could be the ticket if I cannot find a "bolt in" solution.

PS when do I get rid of the bot checking, its a right pain lol

[SPAXIMUS]

Even with the picture it is a hard one to decide the best way. Looking at it is the back window and bulkhead fixed? If it is fixed even moving the engine is not going to give you what you want, but as ever everything is doable.
So I would look at an MGF unit, as this is mounted on a subframe which should fit in easy enough. The gear linkage etc would be in the right place and is designed to run in the rear.

More worringly is your comment on it being a death trap. Why do you say the answer is to keep the speed down. I would suggest speaking with Camber Dave on here if it is suspension issues, if it is basic engineering then perhaps look at permenat soultion like a different chassis under it, like the new Vectis, which is mid engined using the MGF as a doner.

['The Gaffer']

You could fit a lightweight Zetec SE 1.7 from a ford puma.

The engine is all aluminium and was designed in partnership with Yamaha.  They'll rev to around 8,000rpm and produce 125hp. For these reasons, they are being increasingly fitted in kit cars as a replacement for older engines.

I had one in a Sylva Riot. Cracking engine.

[Dibbler]

No its not that the handling is an issue (I haven't driven it to know),

It has a beetle chassis (link to an image if you are not familiar - http://www.chesil.biz/Main_Site_Images/Chassis/roll_front.jpg) and then fibreglass. Because all the metal is so low, if you get hit by anything more substantial that a roller skate you are coming off far worse & will probably end up under whatever hit you.

I can mitigate some of the risk with the 2 roll hoops mentioned above, but even then I don't think the result of losing it at any real speed is going to result in a happy outcome.

I also don't yet know it the car will try & lift the nose at speed, the aerodynamic shape of the car suggests it could become unstable.

All in all, I figure trying to make it go fast could be the last silly thought I ever have, so keeping it to a posing speed is probably much more sensible, as long as it keeps up with modern traffic and sounds cool its all good, 100-120 BHP with that weight should be plenty.

If I did make it fast I would end up using it, I'm not daft enough to kid myself otherwise, one of my bikes does 0-60 in ~4 sec & I would be lying through my teeth if a said it hasn't ever done just that.

[Dibbler]

So I would look at an MGF unit, as this is mounted on a subframe which should fit in easy enough. The gear linkage etc would be in the right place and is designed to run in the rear.

Now that looks like the jackpot if the subframe solution is used (without checking track etc), from a quick Google image search it looks like only the shocks mount to the body & I could fabricate something to pick them up & bolt that to the top of the subframe. Then I just need to fabricate something to attach the subframe to the back of the beetle chassis.

The "transmission tunnel" forms a backbone for the car, so if I grafted off that & the tube that holds the rear torsion bar it should be strong enough for anything I have in mind.

[Moleman]

I think it looks really cool & can't wait to see it progress to a good looking runner. 

There are plenty of guys that can help you on here from engine's to general builds to suspension set up problems from Dave in trackday developements. (he can help you from it flipping over) 

So good luck on your project. 

[Dibbler]

looks like the beetle rear track width is 1350

The MGF is 1410

So if I can count, I would have an extra 30mm of track per side, that's numbers that could work.

[Iancider]

Dibbler,

You have created a lot interest!  Sorry I did not not pick up on you humour!   

The space is very tight.  I could also add that you might be wise to look at some of the baby three cylinder engines available now - Toyota has one and I know there are a few others.  They are only going to give you around 80bhp but that seems enough.  The width is signifcantly less tha 4-potters.  The Fiesta ecotec is an impressive small engine. 

You will need a solid bulkhead to pass the IVA but I guess you will know that .  Also noting the way you have drawn this, have you thought of pushing the footwell and pedal box forward to gain leg-room?  It looks like it might be feasible.  If you gain the leg-room then you could lower the seat and lean it back to lower your head position.  There is a 600 cc micro-engine and drive train in the smart car - it produces 60bhp with its tiny turbo and drives like a much bigger engine.  It also sounds like a six cylinder.

Thinking a little more radically - electric?  the motor(s) would fit in easily and the batteries could be used to nose-weight the car to prevent lift.  Dragon are the experts in this:

http://www.dragonelectricsportscars.co.uk

[Dibbler]

Electric, there's one out of left field, I hadn't considered that at all.

At the moment I am torn between keeping the rear suspension & making a mount for an transverse engine/gearbox

Or

rip it all out & start again.


Do we have a resident expert who would know when a car needs an SVA? I am worried that this very old kit may not make it through the test (headlight heights and such likes).

Bearing in mind the current non original config, If I only lost the transaxle, is that likely to be a step to far?

The log book lists the car as a "2 seat sports car" not a beetle, I seem to remember that helps my cause a little.