Since I joined and Merry Christmas

[Gary RH7]

Just like to wish you all a
Merry Christmas and a happy new Year

Since I joined the club I have had many memorable meets, chats and blats thanks to you guys.

My 20 year old kit has seriously improved, again thanks to you guys and is mow a pleasure to drive but still a small list of things to do.


Below is a list of work carried out since I joined. (Cant mention the cost because the other half might read it)

Replaced windscreen with higher one so I can see through it rather than over it
Removed bucket seats and got seats manufactured to my spec to lower sitting position.
Replaced spax rear dampers and springs to Camber Dave's specification.
Modified front end geometry so castor, camber and tracking now correct.
Installed electric fan to assist cooling but still overheating. (Professionally flushed radiator, engine flushed with de-scaler, new expansion tank, new radiator cap, new temp. sensor, removed thermostat, timing checked with strobe lamp)
Installed electric fuel pump and removed mechanical one.
Replaced steering column bush and universal joint.
Replaced sealed beams with modern Halogen units.
Manufactured side screens and installed.
Added wing mirrors.
Added cigarette lighter socket to keep battery charged and conditioned.
Replaced old Triumph Spitfire wheels with powder coated alloy Stag wheels.

So, all the best guys, have a good one.

Gary

[longtimecoming]

A very merry Christmas to you and yours Gary. I do think you should carry on spending a few pennies on the Hood.

[sanzomat]

That's a decent list of  mods/upgrades - what time period was that over? Proves that a kit is never finished!

Wish I could think of something to suggest for the overheating but looks like you've tried everything - baffling!

[Gary RH7]

That's a decent list of  mods/upgrades - what time period was that over? Proves that a kit is never finished!

It was about 9 months for most of it but before that I was doing the wheel alignment which took months.

[Iancider]

And a Merry Christmas to you too Gary!

On the overheating: the problem may be too little circulation, too little ventilation or just that the radiator is too small or maybe the impeller on the water pump is full of crud.  And normally at this point I recommend Evans waterless coolant which solved my marginal overheating problems. 

I may be able to help with the diagnosis.  I have an infra-red thermometer which you can point at various locations to see hot and cold spots and if for instance there is an air-lock then you will see hot one side and cold the other.

Let me know if I can help.

Ian

[benchmark51]

I would definitely go for venting hot air out of the engine bay. I found that lifting the rear of the bonnet an inch made quite a difference. The air coming in the front has nowhere to go after it has been heated, except down the tunnel or under the car and that's not ideal. I would also consider side vents too. During a hot day Ratbag would get overheated if I drove over 60 for a long period (motorway), lifting the back of bonnet cured it. It could still get hot when stuck in traffic, but I reckon an extra fan would take care of that. When driving without the bonnet on, no problems at all - till it rains of course.

[Facial Hair Optional]

Dave and Ian have a few good points there Gary. A lot of the 'Fast Ford' guys use bonnet lifters to raise the rear of their bonnets to let the hot air out once they have souped up theire engines beyond standard and it works a treat. Also as he says, his did/does not overheat with the bonnet off, have you tried to see if yours still does or not? It may give an indication if it is the engine actually getting too hot or the heat having nowhere to go. Does it overheat when running but stood still? Is there ample room for air to get though from the front of the car to the rad? Not sure how far back from the nose your rad is positioned?

I'm assuming you have checked that the fan actually kicks in and starts up? And that it is on the right way round? Sounds daft but it has happened before where it has not been fitted correctly and instead of blowing or drawing cool outside air through the rad it was sucking or blowing hot air from the engine bay through the it instead!!

It does sound odd that it is still overheating with all that you have done to remedy it, maybe Ian's thermometer will show something up? Fingers crossed mate and a merry Xmas to you 

[paintman]

I would definitely go for venting hot air out of the engine bay. I found that lifting the rear of the bonnet an inch made quite a difference. The air coming in the front has nowhere to go after it has been heated, except down the tunnel or under the car and that's not ideal. I would also consider side vents too. During a hot day Ratbag would get overheated if I drove over 60 for a long period (motorway), lifting the back of bonnet cured it. It could still get hot when stuck in traffic, but I reckon an extra fan would take care of that. When driving without the bonnet on, no problems at all - till it rains of course.

I think that temperature is a common problem with "7"s with such a long and low slung bonnet.

I also raised the rear of the bonnet by 1/2 " and added 2 bonnet vents, one over the manifold and the other over the
carb and inlet manifold......did improve things.

I added an electric fan at the front to help the viscous fan in the engine bay but fear that all I have achieved is to stop the natural airflow from the nose-cone as the radiator is 24" back and it is already being blocked by the 2 inboard coil-overs!!

[Facial Hair Optional]

What engine have you got Gary? I have two bonnet vents exactly as Tony descibes, no viscous fan (from memory, must have another look!) and an electric fan in front of the rad and have no cooling issues at all with my 2.0 litre pinto engine. Even when I got stuck in that tailback on the Keynsham bypass (that Thursday meeting night when there was a very bad accident in Saltford) for about an hour and a half in very hot weather. It was one of the rare occasions when the fan switched on in fact. In the cabin my legs were cooked though!!!

I have wondered the same as Tony, does having a fan in front of the rad make things worse? How about having some trunking feeding cold air from the nosecone entrance direct to the rad?? Some kind of air channeling system? I bought a nice one in blue to direct air to my alternator as it seemed to get very hot but ended up not fitting it. I removed the heat shield bolted to it that was 'protecting' it from heat and in fact it has been better without it!

[Moleman]

Well done Gary I hope we get a few more people that will join us next year & hopefully rediscover why they had a kit car in the first place. 
I hope you get it sorted, like Paintman has said perhaps you need some more air vents in the bonnet like mine & Ian's westy which lets out more engine heat out from under the bonnet.

[Gary RH7]

What engine have you got Gary?

Its from a Triumph Dolomite 1850. Its all from the donor car, radiator and everything. Its one of the reasons I went for the Hood as it was one kit and and donor.
I do have air vents in the top of the bonnet but only feel hot air coming out of the front vents and not much at the back.

I think I might have found a problem where I have blanked off the feed to the internal heater.



Blanking plug is the hex bolt turned down to fit the pipe. Inlet manifold is the silver blob on the left.

I removed the blank tonight and expected water to flow out as it is at a lower point than the filler but nothing. I poked a tye-wrap down the pipe and came to a block by the "T". This is the pipe that runs through the inlet manifold. After poking a few more things down I finally got some water and lots of black sludge. (it has been sitting there for over 20 years) The circulation at the "T" was blocked so I am probably not getting water moving round the inlet manifold etc.

Going to try and force water down the pipe tomorrow to see if I can flush it out. Just hope the vents in the head are not full of the same sludge.

If this does not work I think extra vents, as you guys suggest, might be the way forward.

[Iancider]

Gary,

You might have found the issue.  I believe if you don't want a heater you shoud bypass it and not block it off.  In some engines the primary circuit is just the head and the heater.

Regards
Ian

[benchmark51]

The heater on the crossflow was fed from the inlet manifold and mine was blanked off until I fitted the heater. However, water was able to circulate through the manifold and back to the cylinder head so no problem there. The heater return pipe connected to the bottom hose and was used for the header tank until I fitted the heater, but it now has a tee piece and is connected to the heater and the header. Again it works fine, more than fine the heater is brill'. I have refitted the missing thermostat to aid warm up and the temp reaches 90 on the gauge and the fan kicks in taking it down to 85. I've maxed about 50 miles and had no problems yet.  As Ian says, yours would be better using a by-pass hose to make sure you have full circulation. If you use a cooling system flushing additive and give it a good cleaning out after you fit a by-pass, you may find a world of difference.

[Facial Hair Optional]

As Ian says, yours would be better using a by-pass hose to make sure you have full circulation. If you use a cooling system flushing additive and give it a good cleaning out after you fit a by-pass, you may find a world of difference.

Makes sense to me Gary. Fingers crossed that you have found and can now fix the issue mate 

[Gary RH7]

As Ian says, yours would be better using a by-pass hose to make sure you have full circulation. If you use a cooling system flushing additive and give it a good cleaning out after you fit a by-pass, you may find a world of difference.

Makes sense to me Gary. Fingers crossed that you have found and can now fix the issue mate 

I think the way Triumph originally set it up was with a heater and a by-pass so when the heater was blocked/shut off the by-pass carried on the circulation. In other words the heater and the by-pass were in parallel.

Bit of history;
I had previously flushed with Wynns and Holts. Either didn't clear it as I think they are just like washing up liquid nowadays, I think they have gone green, no chemicals. Then I tried kettle de scaler which got some crud out and sprung a few leaks. I had also taken the rad out and got it professionally flushed.
It was then I thought of the by-pass.

As it was the by-pass that was blocked I probably had no circulation through the inlet manifold. I have now cleaned it out and gave it a good flush with water. I have re-routed the by-pass now with a 2ft long hose which is getting hot when running so I now know I am getting circulation.
I now need some warm weather to test it all out. How long do I have to wait for that

[benchmark51]

About a fortnight, thats how long it took me to drive down to Gibraltar! .

I think you are on the right track with the by-pass. Did you antifreeze it yet? If not maybe a good run and another flush before antifreeze. When I fitted my heater it did increase the radiator capacity a bit, so that may have given me an extra bit of cooling.

[Facial Hair Optional]

The weather was perfect today mate, I went out and did a quick 20 miles in the Tiger. Had a little race with an S2000, I managed to keep hold of him for a while but they are quick little cars!

I bet you were working though? Hopefully you have fixed the issue mate.

[Gary RH7]

No not working today so had a play

Still got the problem

I have taken all your comments on board guys and thanks for them but I would like you to read the following for your opinion before I start cutting holes etc.

I have Vents in the bonnet, but I could put a vent in the side where the exhaust manifold is or raise it to let air out of the back.



The radiator takes up about 90% of the width of the nose cone. It is the one that came with the Dolomite so it should be fit for purpose with good air flow round the engine.

I have just been out for a run today. Firstly to Melksham where the temperature didn't get to normal. No thermostat in but only just got above 50MPH. Outside temp about 13 Degrees C.

Then I had a blast up the M4 to Swindon and back doing about 70 to 80. The temp gauge went past normal and towards the "H" If 50% was normal temp it reached about 75%. As I went round the roundabout to head back the temp dropped to lower than 50%. Giving it some stick on the way back the temp went up to 85% So the faster/harder I drive the hotter it gets over normal temp.

The fact that the temp lowers when I slow down with less air flow round the engine must be a clue to something. You would expect it to get hotter?
Could it be something like the exhaust, timing (set up with strobe light to Haynes manual) mixture (exhaust black carbon deposits and not grey/brown but plugs good colour???

I could go for the waterless coolant Ian but would that just be hiding the problem??? Also would it harm the engine running it so hot for considerable lengths of time?

Any ideas guys?

[benchmark51]

I think that the first thing I would do is raise the back of the bonnet to allow hot air an easy escape. You have enough vents in the bonnet itself. Try that and see if there is any difference.

[Gary RH7]

I think that the first thing I would do is raise the back of the bonnet to allow hot air an easy escape. You have enough vents in the bonnet itself. Try that and see if there is any difference.

Thanks Dave, I could do that as a test to see if it works but I don't like the idea of it being permanent unless I can do it and make it look like it was designed in and not look like an afterthought bodge if you get what I mean.

[sanzomat]

Are you actually sure that the readings you are getting on the dial are actually overheating? Is it calibrated in degrees or just "L" and "H"? Might be that 80% of the way across the gauge is the correct temperature. Different senders can give a different reading on the same gauge even if they are supposed to be the matching ones.

I guess one clue would be if it has ever boiled over at the point the gauge hits the "H"

[Iancider]

That is a good point from Sanzomat.  86 degrees is normally optimal for most engines and of course if ender and gauge are not a matched pair it could misread.  you really have to put a thermometer in the radiator to be sure of the actual reading.

Ian

[Gary RH7]

The gauge is a "L" and "H" with two dots in the middle indicating the correct temp which I assume is 86 degrees. I am going well past the 86 degrees and getting close to the "H" which I assume is 100 degrees/ boiling point.

Both gauge and sender are from the Dolomite but yes, putting a thermostat in the radiator will prove the gauge is correct.

[paintman]

Correct timing and carb setting is vital for a healthy engine, if the engine is tuned it gets more tricky to get
this correct as I know from my own experiences.

I used trial and error which takes time but a rolling road and gas analyser would be more accurate. 

I don't know if your engine is modified but another factor I found was plug temperature....I run 2 plugs hotter than
normal.

My Hood normally runs at around 86 but if I hammer it using high revs. it goes over 90 degrees.

[Facial Hair Optional]

Are you actually sure that the readings you are getting on the dial are actually overheating? Is it calibrated in degrees or just "L" and "H"? Might be that 80% of the way across the gauge is the correct temperature. Different senders can give a different reading on the same gauge even if they are supposed to be the matching ones.

I guess one clue would be if it has ever boiled over at the point the gauge hits the "H"

Was going to say the exact same thing until I read Dave's post. You need to be sure of what the ACTUAL engine temp is Gary, it may not be overheating at all, it could be your gauge or your sender!

How about trying Ian's infra red thermometer?? Do you know what temp N or H actually is on that gauge you have?? My Tiger gauge shows temp in degrees (it doesn't necessarily mean it is correct though!) and I seem to recall on cars of yesteryear when they had N or H that rarely did it run on the N point. In fact I'm pretty sure it was usually inbetween the two in my dad's cars and even my old Fords and such like. Can you maybe borrow another gauge marked in degress and connect it to your sender with the gauge in the car, have a run and see how that compares on readings? Just a thought.

If you have started from a false premise ie it must be overheating cos the gauge says so, but unknowingly the guage (or sender) is pants you may be trying to fix a problem that does not even exist!!!! In which case not only will you not fix it you may make it worse!

Also don't forget that water under pressure and/or with additives in it, ie antifreeze etc will not boil at 100 degrees anyway. It could be 95 degrees or more and you could still be ok. The Fury is designed to run at over 100 degrees on track with no issue at all, not even a fan on!

[Gary RH7]

I can get a digital thermometer and probes from work tomorrow morning so will give it a go. I also have another gauge which I will try.
I have it in the back of my mind that the gauge is accurate but I don't know why .
EXPERTS, does the voltage regulator need to be accurate for the temp gauge and if so what other instruments use it so I can compare what is working correctly and what is not.
I have already changed the sender so I know it is not that.

44+ year old parts Why am I doing this ...because I love it Do I???

[Iancider]

If you find that tomorrow the car runs up to 86 degrees C or thereabouts then the car is fine. 

You will then be able to see where the gauge indicates at 86 degrees.  When you know that you will be able to see when it really overheats instead of when it looks like it is overheating.

[Facial Hair Optional]

Ian - exactly!

Gary - do you want to buy a nice used (non-yellow) Tiger?? 

Sorry mate, don't have an answer for your voltage regulator question 

[benchmark51]

Ratbag's gauge reads 80 - 85 normally and the fan kicks in at 90. Fan stays on until back to 80. Give it some beans and it will stay around 90'ish. I am expecting the temp to be lower now, since the heater went in. Weather is mild so I'll have to wait for a cold spell and then a hot day to really know.

[Iancider]

I now need some warm weather to test it all out. How long do I have to wait for that

Well not long I guess because the Birds have been singing in the trees this week!

[Facial Hair Optional]

I now need some warm weather to test it all out. How long do I have to wait for that

Well not long I guess because the Birds have been singing in the trees this week!

Yes thay have!! And I have bulbs that have come up in my garden already too! Now wait and see, we will get a freezing cold Jan or Feb 

[Gary RH7]

If you find that tomorrow the car runs up to 86 degrees C or thereabouts then the car is fine. 

You will then be able to see where the gauge indicates at 86 degrees.  When you know that you will be able to see when it really overheats instead of when it looks like it is overheating.

OK I have checked the calibration of the gauge and come up with this by putting the probe into the water next to the sensor. Fan belt off and water system not sealed with no radiator cap therefore no pressurised water. Under pressure it should get to 110 C before boiling.



The 100 on the scale is where the water started to boil. The other two points are around normal (two white dots on the gauge)

The 100 degree point is where the temp gets to when I am on the motorway doing 70 to 80 MPH and that's on a cool day so you can see my concern. I only have a little way before it starts to boil over.

Ian/all, Looks like the waterless coolant would work in this case but could running the engine at these temps do damage, head gasket for example.

Still got to try the bonnet idea.
It also could be a badly matched exhaust I have heard. Any thoughts?? After all it is a very early Robin Hood.

[Facial Hair Optional]

Has the car ever actually boiled over in normal use Gary? You took it to the TVR meet as I recall? It seemed ok then. How did it get on the Summer just gone, any boiling over?

[Facial Hair Optional]

Have you got an oil cooler? Another option to help the cooling perhaps?? 

[Gary RH7]

Has the car ever actually boiled over in normal use Gary? You took it to the TVR meet as I recall? It seemed ok then. How did it get on the Summer just gone, any boiling over?

It has never boiled over because I have either slowed down or been on a short journey. A twenty minute drive on a HOT day will take it up to the 100 mark where I have the calibration marks. The TVR meet was a warm day but on the hottest I was driving home from work in a traffic jam and it reached the 100 point. I pulled over and switched off for a short time. So if we have a hot day I cant take it on the motorway for instance.

[Gary RH7]

Have you got an oil cooler? Another option to help the cooling perhaps?? 

Good point mate. I have thought of this but not sure to what extent it would make a difference. I am sure it would make some so I would appreciate any advice on this.

[Iancider]

Answering two points:

Yes waterless coolant will help because it wont boil if it is 100 degrees - it does not boil until 180 degrees C.  Everything is better without water - it is the water that does the damage.  Also at 100 degrees is it much more efficient because even with pressure on it is still boiling in the head - which is hotter  - then the boiling reduces the heat transfer so it boils over very rapidly when it gets there.

Oil coolers are as effective as radiators but they too need to be fitted with a thermostat valve usually on the filter flange to allow quick warn up but you could easily gain 50% more cooling with an oil cooler and they increase the oil capacity so  more cooling mass as well.

Also noting if it is boiling on the motorway which is a low throttle opening and should be high airflow then it has to be be airflow or water-flow limitation I would guess.  Question?  It the fan blowing the right way?  It should be sucking through the rad.

Regards
Ian

[Facial Hair Optional]

An oil cooler would definitely be a big help Gary but what would concern me is why it's not staying cool enough as it is really. I am only guessing about it's power output but I doubt it should really need an oil cooler.

The question about the fan orientation was already raised on page one so I assume it is on the correct way round? And more specifically you want it sucking COOL air from the outside through the rad, it could (and has been done before) be sucking air through the rad and be the wrong air, ie hot air from the engine bay!!

Ideally you want the fan situated between the rad and the engine so it doesn't act as a block to natural air flow through the rad and to be sucking the cool air from the nose/front of the car through the rad into the engine bay, that is the best of all worlds I feel.

The air-flow at motorway speeds point Ian raised is important, in reality your fan should not even come on in those circumstances, in every car I have ever known the air-flow from the cars speed alone is enough to keep it cool. If the fan is coming on while at motorway speeds than as Ian says it sounds like you may not be getting sufficient air-flow through the car or not enough water-flow, or both!!

I wonder if running it at speed with a the big cooling fans they use and the bonnet both on and then off while on a rolling road might give you chance to check out the air-flow and also fan operation etc? I think that is what I would be tempted to do to try and get an insight into how it's working (or not). A decent rolling road guy like John at JPR may well be able to help and advise you on that.

[Gary RH7]

The fan is rotated by the fan belt. Set up as the original triumph. I did add an electric fan earlier this year but made no difference at all but kept it in. Even tried to lower the thermostat so it comes in earlier. The engine fan sucks through the radiator towards the direction of the engine and the electric fan is on the other side of the radiator pushing air through the radiator towards the engine so air flow is correct and quite a lot of it with two fans.
I didn't have space to fit the electric fan on the engine side of the radiator to suck but I definitely notice a difference in airflow when it is on.

If I add an oil cooler, Rimmer Bros do a Kit for about £170.00, I will have to mount it in the nose cone in front of the water radiator but I don't think it will restrict the air flow too much. I only have about 95 BHP so I shouldn't need an oil cooler, again the Dolomite 1850 didn't have one but the Dolly Sprint did have one but that had more power obviously.

I have thought of bonnet fans to try and remove the air from the back of the engine compartment because when I am standing still there is a lot of air coming out of the front vents but nothing out of the rear vents.
Would like your thoughts on this guys.

Again Lifting the bonnet at the back to prove a point needs to be done.

[Facial Hair Optional]

The 100 degree point is where the temp gets to when I am on the motorway doing 70 to 80 MPH and that's on a cool day so you can see my concern. I only have a little way before it starts to boil over.

Ian/all, Looks like the waterless coolant would work in this case but could running the engine at these temps do damage, head gasket for example.

It also could be a badly matched exhaust I have heard. Any thoughts?? After all it is a very early Robin Hood.

Gary has it ever gone above that 100 mark? I'm not sure a hot day at motorway speeds would make a lot of difference, hot days in traffic with no air flow is more of a risk. If you ever see a car boiled over on motorways (or anywhere really) it's usually because they have been stuck in nose to tail traffic with little movement or airflow.

If your run it stationary at idle until it hits full temp and then run it at 2000 or 3000 revs for as long as you can and it doesn't boil, I can't imagine it ever would under any other circumstances. You never know you may find it hits 100 and never goes any higher. I know 86 degrees is supposed to be ideal but often cars run higher. If it were me I would deliberately try and get the car to boil, just to see if it ever does. At least then you would have some peace of mind if you couldn't get it to boil. Nothing worse than driving around on tenterhooks worrying if your car is going to overheat!

Running at temps of 100 or just above wont damage your head gasket I don't think Gary. The Fury goes quite a bit above that when on track with no issues. Different engine I know but I don't think those temps are a gasket risk.

If it was badly matched exhaust (by that I think you mean the ports and tubes don't line up well?) I would think part of the manifold where it joins the head would eventually glow red with the heat as the obstructed gasses hit the manifold rim as they try to escape? I imagine poor gas flow from the head could well cause it to get very hot and could cause a cooling issue. I'm sure Ian would know better than me on this.

If the rad is clear and the water flowing around the engine well then with a decent fan and air flow through the front of the car it should be really easy to keep a car with that bhp cool. Seems a bit odd to me.

Rad ok. Fans ok. Water pump ok. Thermostat ok. Nose cone not obstructed. Bonnet vents clear. With that bhp you shouldn't need an oil cooler or even more bonnet vents really. It should stay at correct temp easily really. Baffled mate.