Greetings!

[benhardt57]

Hi, My name is Ben. I ran across your forum and it looked very inviting, so I joined. Other than an IRS assembly I bought to measure and add to my cad model, my project hasn't started yet. A year ago I began working on a 3D model of a Ferrari 250 GT LWB for fun. But later transitioned to a design of my own which I have dreams of building. I've been busy with it and gathering information, and making decisions like which engine, transmission, etc.  I hope to gain a better understanding of the whole process just by combing though these forum threads. There's a lot of information here! Thanks!

(I just spent a couple of minutes trying to paste pictures of my car, but was unsuccessful. Maybe I'll figure it out later.)

['The Gaffer']

Hi Ben and a warm welcome to our club, glad you find our site interesting.

Under the line of smilies and above the text input box on the reply screen you will see 'Add image to post' Click that and browse your pics and upload the ones you want. They will appear as small thumbnails when you post your reply.

[benhardt57]

Yes, I see it now. Thanks. Attaching images of my 'work-in-progress'. These were generated with SolidWorks

[benhardt57]

I was kinda hoping to hear what you don't like about the design so I can make changes before I get too deep into it.  Surely there's gotta be an opinion or two.

['The Gaffer']

If I were honest, the design looks great but maybe a little too much emphasis on the rear arches for my taste. Also the rear of the car is just as important as the front so would like to see pics of that too maybe along with dash design.

I can see you are trying to base a design on a classic sportscar and can appreciate it must be hard to know where to draw the line between classic looks and lines and futuristic individuality, but so far so good in my opinion

Anyone else care to share a view?

[Grin-a-lot]

In my entirely inexperienced opinion:

Large front and rear arches make me confused as to where to look.  Either massive front arches with a shorter and understated rear or massive rear ones sloping down to the grill at the front (along the lines of a Zonda).

Window is too tall, perhaps sit the driver lower and have a window that is shorter and raked back a bit more?

Shorten the rear sub-frame to give the long bonnet/sat-over-the-rear-axle sports car feel

Driver seems to be in the middle (fore-aft) of the car, either shove the cockpit forward with a massive back-end (again Zonda like but engine position might stop this) or put him at the back of the car.

Bonnet scoop is too narrow and tall, wider and shorter for me (not for everything in life obviously..!)

Rims are a bit pimp-ass for my liking

Will the driver's left butt-cheek get a bit hot with the exhaust exit there.  What about twin exit pipes at the back in the middle (Boxter style-y)?

I like the design idea as a whole though and its got the makings of a real head-turner, the drawings you've done are great as well so please don't think i'm being totally negative (I know its hard when you float ideas and seem to get nothing but bad news back).  If you'd asked what I liked there would've been another equally long list!

[Moleman]

I like it & fair play if you get to build it.
Grin-a-lot is right about the window, it does need to be lower & the front wheel arches also needs to be lower.

[benhardt57]

Thanks guys for taking the time to respond.

Yes, a classic sports car is the look I am after. I love the roadsters of the 50's and 60's! I looked at a lot of them before choosing to copy the 250 GT. But ended up taking a different course to where I am now. The Ferrari's curves are subtle and irresistible. But I wanted to see what exaggerated and voluptuous would look like. The pictures I have attached are revision 3. I had to make changes when I checked dimensions and realized it was so wide it wouldn't fit in most garages!  This isn't the first time I've been accused of going over the top. Challenging boundaries is my nature I suppose. Here's another example.



Along with the looks, I am also concerned with its drivability. If it were considered track-worthy that would be great! So I have been mindful of balance and a low C/G. I'll take a look at moving the seats back more if it's practical.



The back view was intentionally omitted from my previous pictures because I haven't figured out how I want to do the tail lights. But here's a look anyway.



Help me out with a name, because friends ask occasionally. A couple that I have considered, 'Saratoga' (a thoroughbred race track not far from where I live), 'Brittania' (unless the Queen would be offended)      I've also tried to find a cool sounding Italian, Spanish or Latin word, but no luck yet.

[bluehornetrider]

Have you got a power plant and chassis to run it in mind as that would solve your driving characteristics, and dimensions.  There are a few books about that explain racing suspension geometry http://www.amazon.co.uk/Build-Motorcycle-engined-Racing-Cars-Speedpro/dp/1845841239 useful for all sorts of basics.

Is a cobra not curvy enough for you?  Good luck in building your dream.

['The Gaffer']

Still a little bulbous for my likes I'm afraid, and the car looks just too big and maybe too long, sorry. Keep the designs coming.

I'm sure a boundary or two were explored with that rocket Does it fly?

[benhardt57]

Well, I considered Grin-a-lot's advise and pulled the cockpit, engine and transmission back by 77mm; and the seats by 102mm.  I think it makes since. I also lowered the top edge of the windscreen by 50mm


I admit, the car is big compared to a Lowcost, but with a wheelbase of 2515mm and wheel track of 1575mm, it's not outrageous in my opinion. I'm planning on using an LS1 Chevy V8. They're easy to come by in the states.  By profession I'm a mechanical designer with plenty of sheet metal experience. I'm gonna take a stab at the chassis. And since I have access to FEA software and engineer buddies who know how to use it, that's the direction I'm heading. It may not be achievable, but my goal weight is 909kg. I also have a good buisness partnership with a steel fabricator that my company gives a lot of work to. My plan is to send them the CAD flat patterns, they laser cut them and make the folds. I want the components to be interlocking, self-fixturing and self-aligning. Now I can either get them to do the welding or I do it myself to save money.

Oh, I've wanted a Cobra since the earliy 80's but the circumstances were never right. Now the challenge of doing my own car is almost more alluring than owning or building the car. There are a lot of Cobra kits out there. I don't want the car to look too much like them. Thus, bulbous. But there is still time to change that as well.

I made this last year.


This year I made the yellow one based on the same design, but bigger (6.1 meters). Logistics is proving to be much more difficult than building it. Mainly where and when to launch.

[David H]

Lovely mater but tone the arches down a little for my taste. I like aggressive but not pantomime if you catch my drift.

[benhardt57]

Thanks again for the feedback. So far, I would consider all of the comments I've heard, valid.  I have already made some changes and thinking hard about others, specifically the arches. But at the same time I have to consider that there hasn't been many comment[ers], and of those who did, 50% appear to be BMW drivers. I think BMWs are beautiful cars, but their styling could be described as conservative. If you Google 'Exotic Car' you get everything from conservatively styled Aston Martins to gaudy (my opinion) Italian supercars. But beauty is a matter of "taste", a word that a couple of you used in your assessment of my car. Also, if we all were to look at an attractive redhead, we might could all agree that she is a beautiful woman, but 33% of us may say if we had our choice we'd prefer a blonde.
Anyway, I'll tweak the numbers on my arches just to give it a look, because yes, she's a bit gaudy. But I'm keeping a copy of the way she sits now just in case.

['The Gaffer']

No way because I drive a BMW would I compare other designs to it, beauty is indeed a matter of taste and I certainly dont think BMW win any top prizes there.

I dont really think you can base the responses here as conclusive as the replies have been minimal to say the least, and at the end of the day it's your car and design so stick with what you feel. Maybe we will see your name next to Pinin Farina one day .

[benhardt57]

You're right again. And I have to keep reminding myself that the number one reason for doing any of this is fun. So as long as it's still fun, we're good.
I had been preparing for another step that would help me validate the design. Since it's difficult to grasp the purest perspective of an object by looking at it on the screen, in this case my car, I was gonna have a 1/10 scale model generated by stereolithography.  That'll answer a lot of questions for me, and worth the cost I believe.

['The Gaffer']

You're right again. And I have to keep reminding myself that the number one reason for doing any of this is fun. So as long as it's still fun, we're good.

Exactly, I'm surprised you didnt get much more feedback but the kit car season is coming to an end now and usually as a result the forum goes very quiet.

Keep us updated

[peterw]

Well I like it, but the rear wings are too high !!!

[benhardt57]

Well, I'm glad I was able to get some feedback from you fellows. I spent a little time on Saturday slimming down the fenders (arches, wings or whatever they're called) and I have to admit I like it better.  It was an easy exercise, so later on if I want to shrink them more, I can.




I didn't shorten the tail end yet. Perhaps I'll try that next.

[peterw]

Thats better

['The Gaffer']

Thats really much better, try a little shorter rear, only a bit at its quite a feature of the car.

[benhardt57]

OK, I'll try going a little shorter. But even though I'm not concerned with trunk space (all practicallity is being tossed out the window )  I do have to make sure there's room for the fuel tank and a spare tire.

[TimC]

Interesting - I like it.

It does remind me a bit of the car I'm building - the Autotune Gemini

[YellaBelly]

Now that I like!

[benhardt57]

Oh I like it too.  Just another example of the 50s/60s style that I love.

I don't know where this silly path I'm taking leads me. It may be limited to a fun little car that my wife and I take out on Sunday afternoons. Or perhaps I'll build a handful for enthusiest friends and family. Or what if there's enough interest that I can wean myself of an employer's paycheck and build kits full time. What I'm getting at is, in America (good or bad) if I want to appeal to a broader range of potential builders, it'll need a V8 under the hood. These are my goals, 1) Light weight and fast in the corners. 2) Plenty of horsepower. 3) 1/8th the price of a Corvette.

['The Gaffer']

Nice car there Tim

Biggest problems in setting up a relatively small build run of kit cars is finding premises, tooling up, initial cash flow, and making sure the car will pass all local safety regs, could be very expensive. You would need a good rolling prototype to take to shows and photo shoots etc. All very time consuming but you need to be able to get the car seen. On the other hand, someone may love your design and buy the rights to manufacture.

Your car would be very at home in the USA.

[benhardt57]

I agree with everything you said. I've thought about them quite a bit.

Regarding exposure, yes, car shows will be important. What do you think about this: I research and find a successful race team, and approach them with an offer of two cars to race. Perhaps the team owner has a friend or family member that wants to get into racing. They'll then puts in the effort to set up the chassis and suspension for race readiness. So in the end, I'll gain exposure and learn from their tuning work.


I'm not yet 100% sold on it, but I trimmed off 200mm from the length of the tail. Here's a view of it.

[benhardt57]

Surely you fellows will like this!

[paintman]

Yea thats cool.....love the back arches now.....much better.            Tony

[Mustang Tony]

Coooool
Get it on the road :-)

[YellaBelly]

Sweeeet!

[benhardt57]

Thanks guys!

I trimmed off 200mm from the length of the tail.     Ooops! Actually it was 100mm

Any thoughts about ground effects? Too much?

[Moleman]

That is looking really good now. 

[benhardt57]

Glad you like it!

I suppose I should quit playing with the body and finish my chassis and suspension.


It does need turn signals, markers and tail lights though....

[benhardt57]

Gimme shelter.....
Removable hardtop maybe?

['The Gaffer']

Hardtop yes absolutely.

How about a tinted top fading to clear on the sides?

[benhardt57]

Great idea! Though I'm not sure how I can pull that off in CAD.

[benhardt57]

I've gone out on a limb here. Care to guess what this came out of?



Here's my nearly complete CAD model of it.

[benhardt57]

A little update.

['The Gaffer']

Looks like a nice piece of drop in engineering whatever it is..

Car is looking great other than, in my opinion anyway, the 'face' looks a little sad. Can you try a little more aggressive look on the bonnet intake lines?

[benhardt57]

Looks like a nice piece of drop in engineering whatever it is.

Oh that's my rear suspension. It came from a 2010 Camaro.


I trimmed her down yet again. Here's a picture: