the future of kitcars

[aliwizard]

hi all ,just reading Januarys complete kitcar mag ,and have just read that the  Exeter show was the last ,and it is going back to Malvern to be run along side a non automotive show on the same weekend, to me this is no surprise as the last few years has been pretty bad, so what do people think about the future of kitcars ,do they have a future ,is the iva system putting people off building  kitcars ,  for me there seams to be a lack of new design's nothing really  exciting in the last few years ,a lot of kits based on donor cars that do not need iva ,just bolt body panels on  and away you go , there is a lot of great donor cars out there ,some still a bit to pricey but in a few years they will be within reach , bmw z3,z4  , mazda r8,porsche boxter ,  some of the big v8 mercs and beamers just to name a few , where are the new generation of  young designers ,are they happy just sat on there PlayStations , and don't want to get there hands dirty  ,cant be arsed as my own son said to me the other day , now with this sort of attitude  I fear for the future of kitcars .what do other people think , be honest  and speak your mind ,happy new year to all .

[Krazyken]

I have thought this for some time, it seems to me that there are only 3 markets left for kit cars: -

1. Track Days - Light weight, great handling & performance, superb power to weight ratio
2. Genuine Builders - those who just want to build a kit car, a dying breed due to the Playstation Generation
3. Good Replicas - where the originals cost a fortune e.g. Cobra, GT40, Porsche 356, Jaguar SS100, Stratos etc.

The days of building a car and making money when you sell it are long gone so it really is a labour of love.  Also modern cars are so much better designed, more reliable and rust free.  Shop around and you can pick up a decent MGF or MX5 from £1500 with a heater, music, folding roof, good handling, year round usability etc. so the case for the traditional open kit car has long gone.

I see a future for niche kit cars that fit into one of the 3 categories above but the industry as a whole will probably contract over the coming years to these range of products.  A shame but a sign of the times.

[Moleman]

Unless you have the bank of mum & dad most people in there 20's don't have the budget to blow it on kitcars as they need it to get morgages etc. I could only think about getting a kitcar until I was in my fortys when thing got a bit easier for me.

Glad I got one now though. 

[Bulldog Bri]

I to have noticed this drop in the kit markets.

Stoneleigh last year had a very noticeable drop in company's supplying kits to build, and more of the body kit type offering their products. :-( I personally feel this is due more to the IVA getting harder and harder as the Eurocrats wreck the homebuilder market just because they don't like the idea of people making things for themselves.

Yes there did need to be a test of sorts to qualify a car to become road legal that's for sure, when I built my first Bulldog in the 80's, all that was needed was an engineers signature saying the car was sound and then MoT'ed. This did let a lot of questionable cars on the road for sure, so the SVA was brought in, this should have been enough to keep the industry a safe one but as always the Euro's had to intervene and slowly make it harder and harder to finish a car (latest is that Fog lights now need to switch off when headlights go off and need to be re-switched back on) yes it's a good idea but not necessary. As are so many of their little requirements 

As for the Playstation Generation, that will be felt through out all markets that require a bit of imagination and working things out for yourself!

['The Gaffer']

I believe the manufactuers have let their fingers off the pulse. There is no dynamism in any of the products, some still using ford sierra parts, what on earth is that about??

Given good design and marketing, a kit car could be a great entry point for younger drivers with possibly lower insurance etc. Trouble is the younger PlayStation generation see kit car builders as boring old farts tinkering with bits of metal and that needs to change. Well designed kit cars need to be marketed at the younger generation so they would be proud to show off to their mates and girlfriends. Shows like Stoneleigh don't really help with dwindling exhibitors and the same old stands with the same people in the same place. De ja vous, very boring actually. Its the show organiser's that need to push the shows harder to the right people inc TV and press.

The whole scene needs to be àimed at the younger generation as the older ones are gradually moving into classics and sports cars just like me. But if there was a good value kit that had all the comforts I wanted i would consider it.

Agreed, the IVA and registration process does not help but personally I would want and a buy pre built on the road

[Bulldog Bri]

Maybe you could consider this Phil

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tribute-Automotive-KOBRA-BMW-Z3-based-Cobra-body-conversion-kit-car-NO-IVA-/191024285403?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item2c79ef46db

['The Gaffer']

That's quite interesting Bri.

[bluehornetrider]

I consider myself one of the playstation generation, being in my mid thirties.  I guess peoples priorities change over time and financial burdens. 
In my late teens when I was reading kit car mag's I never had any spare money and had a cheap and nasty car that I could just about keep on the road.  Drinking and nights out being higher up the spending list.
In my Mid 20's I was married with young kids so never had any money, but did manage to get a motorbike which I'd wanted for a long time.
In my late 20's I couldn't justify spending any excess on a sunny day car, also had to sell the bike as I couldn't use it for work anymore.
In my early 30's I started my own business, so any money I had quickly disappeared.
Now in my mid 30's I came into some money and the kids are old enough that I can buy a car that I've always wanted, it's still a tin top but I can use it all year round.  When I get through finishing the Spitfire project I'll get a proper kit as I'd still like to build something but it is a large time and financial burden I still can't justify.

I believe that there are still plenty of people out there wanting a kit car, as they offer something unique, but most people have other burdens that take priority.

The only way I see for the kit car industry is to offer something unique to the prospective owner.  A cheaper faster track-day alternative, but can be driven home.
Off roader without Premium car overheads.
Quality sports-car again without premium costs, what Lotus used to offer.

There will always be a market for cheaper replica cars, but with some of these costing £40k plus they aren't cheap enough as they have a following of there own that young enthusiast can get started with.

I bought the Porsche because it was a car from my childhood, it has a great V8 engine and excellent build quality, although it does have a few issues.
It was cheaper to buy than most kit cars to buy used or build, and I could drive it straight away.     

[Bulldog Bri]

Yes there are plenty of people out there who would want to build a kit from scratch, but then having an expensive test at the end to get it on the road, will inevitably put loads off. As building a kit was a way of get a cheap fun car on the road this alone has raised the cost of kit cars, to build or built, as those who have done the IVA on the car feel that this puts value on their car (which it does)

I started building my 7 while it was still just the SVA, at £150 for the test, it now stands at around £450 for the test plus another £100 for the re-test. This alone has been the cause of me delaying getting mine tested 

[Iancider]

Its true but it is true for all sectors of life now and not just kit-cars. 

If you can afford one as a luxury add-on to your lifestyle then you probably have some grey hair or somebody who had grey hair has probably left you some money in a will  

Bri has a point about the EU - I blame them for everything - killjoys, spoilers, worryers, officials, bureaucrats, who can only find new ways to spoil our lives.  What we need are some politicians with a bit of good old fashioned British charisma and they will drive kit cars with a bit of oomph and style.  Graham Hill I always thought would have made the perfect politician I could always agree with. 

So we must not take this lying down - We have to fight them on the beaches.....  I would vote for anybody with a passion for cars and who knew that the EU was a load of "B...........s"  (Bureaucrats) 

[Zephyr]

Just following on from what a few if you have said.

I'm from the "playstation generation" as im 24 now. I have been working since the day I left school, I moved out at 17 and rent my own workshop.
Everything I own is 100% paid for by me with whatever I have left over with my wages. To buy my kit car I have sacrificed a daily driver so currently have no car on the road.
It seems the only way to afford one sensibly is to be either a little older or to be supported by your parents. Problem there is if you are supported through your 20's you usually aren't a practical guy, driving a 12 plate BMW wearing a suit to a job that daddy gave you.

Basically, I feel the scenario is this for younger people;
If you do want one you are in a manual trade not earning enough to get a second car. If you can afford one you are an office worker who has no interest in anything older than 2 years old without a 1.9tdi.

This is a semi rant about over privileged young people and is a generalisation. I know there are exceptions and mean no offence to office workers, underpaid mechanics, BMW drivers or the 1.9tdi (not a bad engine)

Anyway off to work, to daydream about what I can do with my sylva!!
Ta
Dan

[Bulldog Bri]

Up until I left school, I'd never even lifted a spanner to work on anything, just sat in my bedroom playing on the first home computer (BBC Micro) and flying through space (Elite). So I sort of thought of myself as a gamer (of the time). I even remember my dad having to strip the head off his Escort and I barely took any interest in what he was doing.

Got my job as a Postie and a cheap first car. Yes I liked custom cars but way out of my level of pay. It wasn't till another postie mentioned kit cars that I'd ever even thought about building anything, and kit cars did give the chance of owning something different and cheap at the time. So I was hooked.

I just find it sad that those opportunities aren't really out there now, thanks to how much the rules have been over tightened (strangled) and they are killing a once vibrant market. 

[Iancider]

Observation: not once have I met anybody with a kit car that was boring or dull.  And even people who want one are interesting but just hard-up.  Put a dull person in the passenger seat and they instantly become an interesting person who wants one.  Take an interesting person with no money, add funds and they buy a kit car. 

Or to put it another way - dull people don't have kit cars and dont want a kit car even when they have money.  They would prefer to save and be dull forever.  Do we want to be dull HELL NO! 

So I have a plan....  If you meet somebody who seems evern remotely interesting - give them a ride and then they are hooked forever!

[Sprint 7]

I think that a few of the guys that have commented on the subject of kit cars have missed the point. People who want to tinker and modify cars will always do so. Yes, Mr Chapman started the whole thing off in the late 50's because he wanted something to play with at weekends and eventually make him a living, but no one forced him to. If youngsters want to play on Playstations for the rest of their natural, then let them.( I personally don't know what they are ,have never had a go on one and am not the slightest bit interested and think that if all you want to do in life is wiggle buttons or suchlike with their thumbs let them carry on)
The IVA test is VERY prohibitive but we all go through it so if you are able to finance and build  a kit car of any sort using, ANY make/type/or age of parts from ANY model of doner that you wish ;CARRY ON and the best of luck.
Yes this is a bit of a rant but just stop F.ing whining and do your own thing , and most of all enjoy yourself. Life is far too short.
There ,I've said it 

['The Gaffer']

There ,I've said it 

Hey, this is a express yourself forum, all opinions are welcome here

[YZFMINI]

I would love to build my own car. Im from the playstation years. But I got my hands on spanners before I left school, taking my mountain bike apart. The only games I was ever any good at were driving games. If I had found out about them a bit a few years ago I would have probaby got one instead of doing my bike engine conversion in my mini. But now i would buy one that has been sva/  iva and strip it and rebuild it, after seeing some cars. But now I have family and I havd much less timd and money. Another reason for soon having to sell it. Ive been saying this for a while now. Lol.

[Camber Dave]

The very start of the movement was to convert E93A Ford Pop's (remember them Hairy?) to 'Specials' by throwing away the 'Vertical' bodies. The steering column was rotated to lower it and a 2 seater body was made. Google Tornado Typhoon, Fairthorpe and Turner.
Later the 750 motor club started to make there own chassis and many of the members went on to establish the British Motor Racing Industry. Chapman, superb as he was, was one of many. Gorden Murray, The Costin brothers,  Keith Duckworth, Arthur Mallock, Robin Herd and Ben Bowlby to name those that come to mind.

The origins and progression of the industry was to provide the public with an affordable approximation of a contemporary Sports or Supercar. It was left to the builders to locate the donor bits and their skill to get it looking good. Many failed and thus was established the tradition of scruffy kitcars.

The SVA changed this in 12 months: the manufacturers had to up their game and costs followed. The IVA added more costs. To be fair there were moves to ban kitcars altogether but the car enthusiasts in Thatcher's cabinet,  Waldegrave and Alan Clark for instance, joined the English kit cars into legislation covering all imported and special purpose vehicles. This is why now the IVA keeps adding regulations that seem irrelevant to us. This or a ban altogether?
All this has meant that a new Kit car is more expensive than a good second hand sports car.

The Future?  The sports car, both replica's and originals will always be built I hope as I need the work. However with increasing congestion, Charging and city restrictions I believe the next new thing will be Electric and Hybrid. Soon Nissan leafs (leaves?) and the like will be available from breakers. The advantage of building an low emissions car is that we can put the batteries and engine anywhere to get interesting shapes and still get the weight distribution spot on.

A Tesla or Batmobile replica made from an old Prius parts costing pennies to run, No congestion charge and fifth of the original build price sounds like a plan to me.

[bluehornetrider]

I really hope the future isn't electric, they just feel so soulless. Hydrogen now that interests me but the technology seems no closer to coming than it was years ago.

[Bulldog Bri]

Surprised they haven't started wanting ABS and Airbags fitted as well

[Iancider]

Bluehornetrider,

I know what you mean about electric  - see the Westfield i-racer.  it is impressive but like an epic movie without the orchestra! 



Go milkfloat GO!!!!!

Ian

[Moleman]

It really aint the same! Thats not driving! Thats just on or off    

[Bulldog Bri]

I thought it was very boring. It ain't got no soul 

[benchmark51]

Most interesting part of that was the kamikazi fly hitting the camera.
Just not the same without the BRRRMMMMMMMM.

[chrislandy]

From what I've seen of the B/IVA, it's a bit stricter than the SVA but essentialy the similar, its the cost of the test and the subsequent re-test that it putting me off building another.

The other issue these days is that you can buy an elise for sub 5k thats fully tricked, so it's almost a case of why build when you can buy?

I've loved kitcars from day one and build, rebuild or helped build loads of cars (10+) and I love the creativity and problem solving inherent with a car build but I doubt I'll do another one unless its a scratch build hillclimber or track car.

I'm sure the goverment/EU will come up with another rule change that will ban any modification post approval or even introduce mandatory crash testing/calculation for "safety" reasons and kill the industry off completely. We are one of the only countries in the world that has a kitcar industry and the EU cannot comprehend that a bloke in a shed can build a car anymore

[YellaBelly]

I'm never happy unless I have a spanner/screwdriver/welder in my hand! I would not have missed building my Locost for the world

It was a real PITA and there were times that I could have set fire to it and all my tools!! But in the end, even after the Government whacked the cost of the IVA up by 140%    I refused to let that stop me and the car become another 'part-built' on eBay

And after all the grief, to get that stupid grin on my face every time I get behind the wheel, it was worth it.

Having said that, I would never do it again from scratch and only go for an already registered rebuild project mainly because of the cost and red-tape that goes with a new build.

Let's hope for everyone's sake that kit cars stay around for a long time to come, it would be so sad to lose that innovation and passion that only Britain's (and psuedo Aussies Adrian ) posses RULE BRITTANNIA!! 

[benchmark51]

Your right, better to buy something ready tested and get to work making it 'yours'.
When buying, you can 'mentally' knock off £500 at least. Enough to pay the fee's
and a bit more to avoid all the faffing around    . The other big headache is having the space
to do it all, it's been no fun in the back garden and a rented lock up!

[aliwizard]

just found out there will be no Newark kit car show this year ,first Exeter, now Newark ,this is what I feared would happen in a few years I can see Stoneleigh being the only kit car show that will be held ,agree with camber Dave ,a exo electric type car made from a Prius would be a fun project great for summer city commuting  cost nothing ,BUT  without the young designers it will not happen ,PUT DOWN THOSE PLAYSTATIONS AND GET DOWN TO THE SCRAP YARDS ,I really do fear for the future , if things  don't change very soon .