Another Triumph Spitfire

[robp]

Well, the old Spit has been rather neglected over April.  I have been waiting this long for a few parts from Canley's.   Back order, blah, blah.   

Well, they must have been reading this post.  Box of goodies arrived this morning from Canley Classics.

What's more, SWMBO is out tonight so it's an early night for the kids and then straight to the garage for me!! 

[Pilgrim Anna]

What an Idiot!!!! Lol 

[robp]

New exhaust downpipe.  No longer available in mild so stainless it is.  Went on easily and now car a lot quieter. 

[robp]

With the new section of exhaust I'd thought I'd spend a few minutes playing with the carbs.  I have just replaced the knackered clutch master cylinder and with the brakes working (no handbrake) it's nearly time to drive the car down the lane and see if I can free off the seized clutch.

Anyway, the engine ran fine for a minute and then conked out.  Bit of ether in the carbs got it to fire which pointed to a fuel problem.  Sure enough no fuel getting through.  There was fuel at the pump so I took that off to have a look.  Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. 



The end of the fuel pump lever has sheared off.  It was a new pump too.      I have to work out why it's happened.  It was a direct replacement for my old pump.  I've used the same spacer off the block.  I have an electric pump to keep me going in the meantime but I need to work out why it's happened.

My main concern however is where the hell the end has gone.  The pump is driven off the camshaft.  I had a look in the hole in the side of the block were the pump fits but nothing there.  Anyone know about the internals of these engines?  Hopefully it's just fallen into the sump.  If so I'm not going to worry too much. 

['The Gaffer']

Thats real bad for a new pump Rob, hope that little part has made it all the way to the bottom.

I would definitely complain to the suppliers and ask them to send you a more expensive model free of charge, not sure I'd trust them again. Possible metal fatigue on a batch maybe?

[Bulldog Bri]

If not wishing to take the sump off to retrieve the missing bit, maybe an idea would be to attach a fairly strong magnet on to the sump somewhere that would attract and hold any bits in one place so that if and when you ever did take the sump off, you should be able to find it easily. 



I've seen this done along time ago, and it's surprising what sticks to it.

[fullpint]

  You can see more hair line cracks on that lever..
Hopefully the missing bit is in the sump...

[YellaBelly]

I'm guessing that our Midget runs the same type of fuel pump because it is the 1500 so same as the Spitfire. Best check mine out when I do the engine strip/check

Hope it turns up in the sump Rob.

[benchmark51]

You have to go in and get it, you'll worry about it everytime you start up otherwise.

It's a bu***r, but  probably cheaper in the long run. Plus you'll feel better

I saw a chap in Kingswood drop nut down the timing cover on lotus elan, took a chance and the car made it to old market, ouch!

[Bulldog Bri]

Another thing to try is one of those magnets on a telescopic bar, should be able to get in the fuel pump hole and search the sump that way a bit. 

[Hairy Santa]

I'm pretty certain it has dropped straight to the bottom of the sump, drain the oil, with a bit of luck it will come out with it, you might be lucky and already have a magnetic sump bung if not put one in, that should pick it up   

[robp]

Thanks for all the advice, guys. 

I'll start by draining the oil off.  Not sure if I can drop the sump with the gearbox attached.  If I fail to free off the clutch then it's all got to come out anyway.

I would definitely complain to the suppliers....

I'm not sure it was a defective part, Phil.  On doing some research, I think it was me who cocked up. 

With the late 1500 fuel pumps you need to make sure that the pump lever is positioned above the camshaft.  It's very easy to fit it under the cam when inserting into the block.  It'll still work for a while before the lever snaps off.   

Anyway, new pump ordered.  Lesson learnt. 

[YellaBelly]

Most definitely glad I know that before I strip the midget 1500 mate!!

['The Gaffer']

I would definitely complain to the suppliers....

I'm not sure it was a defective part, Phil.  On doing some research, I think it was me who cocked up. 

With the late 1500 fuel pumps you need to make sure that the pump lever is positioned above the camshaft.  It's very easy to fit it under the cam when inserting into the block.  It'll still work for a while before the lever snaps off.   

Anyway, new pump ordered.  Lesson learnt. 

Ooops I take it back, hope you get it sorted.

[robp]

With various family and work commitments recently, I have not have much time for the Spit.  Managed to finally get back to the garage and get on with a few jobs.

Got the scuttle repainted and master cylinders back on.

Before:


After:


As you'll know, I've had the engine running already.  However, I couldn't get it to run consistantly.  Sometimes it fired up straight away, other times it would take a few pulls.  Often, once it was warming up and tried to shut off the choke it would stall.  It clearly needed setting up properly.  I haven't got much experience with SU carbs so I thought it was about time I started learning about them.  Most people I spoke to said how easy they are to work on. 

I really want the car to run well.  OK, it's an old bus and it's never going to be as reliable as a modern motor.  Hoever, if the engine is going to be a pain then I (and SWMBO) will rapidly get cheesed off with the old motor.  Also, if you're going to the trouble of rebuilding a car then do it right.  So far all I have done is stripped the carbs down, cleaned everything up and replace the main jets.  It appears they need a little more t.l.c. than that.  Fortunately, there are very few parts to a SU and all the parts that wear are available in a service kit. 

My carbs are the HS4 model.  The 4 stands for the carb bore size.  It is the number of 1/8" of an inch over 1" size.  In this case, 4/8"=1/2" + 1" makes 1 1/2" size.  Likewise, a HS6 SU is 6x 1/8" + 1" = 1 3/4".  Understand?  Good!

My carbs have two features put on later models which I shall removing.  (1) Waxstat main tubes (which I have covered in an earlier post) and, (2) throttle disk valves which are a little spring loaded valve on the butterfly.  I'll be replacing this will a solid disk.  There is a little play on the throttle spindles so I will be replacing the spindle bushes too.  One of my 'rebuild' carbs recently showed another problem; a flooding float chamber.  The needle valve was sticking.  Luckily the service kit comes with a new valve and seat.

[robp]

Started on rear carb first.  Amazing; a few screws undone and most the carb is in pieces.  Piston and metering needle on top right.  I was really careful removing this so as not bend the needle.


Old waxstat jet tube with new fixed tube.  This is all coming off again but I'm also going to disassemble the jet adjusting assembly this time; it's filthy.  It means I'lll need to re-center the jet on reassembly.  The piston lifting pin on this carb is seized so I'll be sorting that out too.  Not strictly required but it will allow me to tune the mixture with the air filters in place.


Removed the piston damper assembly from the suction chamber body.  Blimey, I thought I'd cleaned this before!


Once everything is in pieces I'll give it a good soak in carb cleaner overnight.

[fullpint]

Don't you love working on older stuff.. Bet a modern carb has more than 4 screws...
Should look nice when its all clean..

[YellaBelly]

Looking good Rob.

We've been busy with the bodywork still, almost ready for the etch primer, and we got the paint delivered the other day

Can't wait for a long enough dry spell to be able to get on with it.

['The Gaffer']

Nice pics Rob, it must be nice to work on bits that you can see and that can make a difference to how the car runs. Not like today's computerised systems.

[robp]

We've been busy with the bodywork still, almost ready for the etch primer, and we got the paint delivered the other day

Can't wait for a long enough dry spell to be able to get on with it.

I will be watching your bodywork restoration on the MG with interest especially the paint.  I hope you're still going for Inca Yellow, JB.  Best colour! 

Shame my car is not ready for a respray yet.  We could do them both at the same time! 

[robp]

OK, I've got the carbs back together and back in the car.  Here we go again.  Rubbing hands together.

Engine fired up!  All smiles   

It was running slightly off which I would expect with carbs out of balance, etc.  I got my syncrometer on the inlets and started seeing how far out the air flow was on each side.

It was then that I noticed both float bowls had started leaking.   Now I knew the needles valves were adjusted properly.   I thought I would check the pressure from the my new shiny, second time lucky, fitted on the correct side of the cam, fuel pump.  Well the pressure gauge hit 7psi!!  WTF!!     This should be 2-3psi for these carbs!

I have fitted a new inline fuel filter as part of the rebuild (there wasn't one before).  It looks like I'm going to have to fit an effing pressure regulator too.

[YellaBelly]

Chuffin''ell!

Looks like I'll need to keep an eye out when our beastie goes back together then! Mind you, it's the original pump that was in there when it was running OK before we got it (assuming he wasn't lying!) so it should be fine.....

P.S.  Thanks for doing all the troubleshooting before I get the troubles Rob

[robp]

It looks like I'm going to have to fit a pressure regulator too.

OK, I found a Filter King regulator in a box in the garage.  It was on my old V8 Capri and was part of the NO2 system.  Anyway, fitted to the Spit and fired up the old girl.


The regulator has a pressure gauge on it.  Well, once the pressure hit 12psi (yes, 12!) fuel started coming out everywhere!  I quickly shut off the engine.  The regulator in the (new) pump must be knackered.  Great.   I'll return it to the supplier. 

I'm almost at the point of fitting my electric pump.

[robp]

I've fitted the electric pump via a relay, etc.  Much better and carbs now seeing about 3psi.  Mechanical thingy on it's way back to suppliers.

OK. Time for a drive.  It was a bit of a challenge getting the Spit out of the garage with a seized clutch.  Thankfully the Spitfire has a turning circle better than a London cab!  Anyway, I was expecting to have to get a bit brutal to free of the clutch.  However, it went easily and I was able to go for a drive!! 

 

Sorry to disappoint you Ed.  It appears I'm not quite as tall as Ed China!!  I can actually look through the windscreen and not over it!

Engine ran well; no leaks, overheating, etc.  I need to check mixture is correct.  The fan belt start squealing so a quick check required there.  There was something banging underneath at the back which is probably the exhaust as it's quite tight with the chassis.  The brakes working well but I have no handbrake.

It's a great moment to finally get the Spitfire moving under it's own power for the first time in 7 years.  Of course, still loads to do.

['The Gaffer']

Nice one Rob Sounds sweet.

[Lucky Ed]

Well done Rob - she's looking good.

I might have to get you some cushions to sit on so you can get the wind in your hair

[Hairy Santa]

nice one, proper job 

[YellaBelly]

Nice one Rob!

We're a way off that stage yet, but the bodywork is starting to look better. Got the doors, bonnet, boot all etch-primed, going to hang the doors probably tonight so I can get the final bits of alignment and filler/sanding done.

Nice to see your Spit' on the move though

[robp]

... going to hang the doors probably tonight so I can get the final bits of alignment done.

You should see the panel gaps on my driver's door; you can see them in the video.   
I'm not too concerned at the moment though as that door needs to be either replaced or re-skinned.

[YellaBelly]

I wouldn't worry too much mate, in the 'old' days they reckoned at the factory "if it shuts, it fits"

[robp]

I had one of those night in the garage last night.

I was determined to get the engine running sweetly.  OK, it starts, runs, doesn't over heat, etc. which is good.  However, it's not there yet.  It coughs and splutters when I try to rev it up.  (It will rev).  Carbs are balanced.  Mixture?  Well, the plugs are a little sooty (rich) but if I lift the carb piston with a screwdriver the revs die immediately (weak).  I probably need to get hold of a Colourtune and see what  that shows.

I've done the usually checks.  Good compression on all cylinders.  Got sparks (not the fattest admittedly).  Timing?  Well, as you know, I did a top end rebuild and left the bottom end alone.  During this time I left the dizzy on the block so (in theory) the timing is OK.  I have Optronic ignition so there are no points.  However, normally 90% of poor running is electrical.

Anyway, left the garage with my head bowed last night. 

[Moleman]

Sometimes when it start's going that way & it's getting late, Then it's time to call it a night & look at it again the next day with fresh eye's. Even though at the time you really don't want to leave it until it's done but you just end up not getting much done in the end. 

Hope you get it sorted soon mate. 

[YellaBelly]

Look on the bright side mate, I haven't even started to clean and check over the engine yet! You're way ahead of me chap

['The Gaffer']

Have you checked for a good earth to the engine Rob?

[benchmark51]

If you lift  the dashpot piston you are richening the mixture. I would say you are already running rich which is why the revs die.
A good starting point is to screw the mixture nut up till the jet is level, then screw it down 12 nut flats. This should run well enough to balance the carbs. Then adjust the mixtures.

[robp]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

If you lift  the dashpot piston you are richening the mixture. I would say you are already running rich which is why the revs die.

You could well be right.  I've just ordered a Colortune so we'll soon see what the mixture is like.  I've heard of some people using two Colortunes on an engine with twin carbs.  Well, one step at a time for me!

You're way ahead of me chap

Yes, I'm ahead on the oily bits.  It's the other way around on the bodywork though!  If I can't sort my engine out soon I'm going to be asking to borrow bits off you engine to swap over and work it out by a process of elimination!! 

[Daley Down Under]

You're getting there Rob - minor SU carb challenge - nothing you cant handle

[robp]

You're getting there Rob - minor SU carb challenge - nothing you cant handle

Thanks, Adrian.  Yes, I certainly need to get back in the garage and give it another try.

[robp]

OK, finally manage to get back in the garage for a short time today.  Beginning to forget what the old Spit looks like!

I met a couple of Triumph enthusiasts at the Frenchey Museum Car Show the other day.  They suggested I could have some muck in the new jets as one of them had a similar issue with his Herald.  They also suggested I looked at the ignition timing.  Readers of this thread will know that I haven't removed the dizzy from the block yet.  Anyway, I firstly marked the current position of the distributor.  Then I loosened off the clamp and tried to turn it.  Nope, stuck solid!  I ended up taking the whole thing off the engine.  It still took half an hour on the bench to free it off.  All done now and back on the engine.



I have a strobe light, so together with my new Colortune, I'll have that old lump running like a sewing machine in no time.  All I need now is some time!

[YellaBelly]

Stick at it Rob, these are the joys mate