vauxhall redtop into a locost kit car

[Seb]

Hi everyone im just wondering how difficult it is to fit the vauxhall c20xe (redtop) engine into a locost style kit car that I am looking to build I know there is a issue with the original sump fitted to the engine whats the best way around this and cheapest as on a very tight and small budget I am a well experienced mechanic so nothing should be to difficult but any help would be appriciated and anything else that needs fabricating to the engine for it to run and work as it should i know they say chop and weld a 8v sump but reduces the amount of oil in the sump can this be a issue sorry for it being so long but wanted to get my questions out there for as much feedback as possible thanks again.

[Iancider]

Hi Seb,

Good to hear from you again.  I have no direct experience of this solution but I have found a very good reference article - sump and much more:

http://westfield-world.com/xeinstall.html#Sump

As you say the sump is the issue and it recommends modifying the 8V sump.  It also warns about low oil capacity and potential starvation on corners and lower capacity also means less cooling so an additional oil cooler or the winged Opel Manta tank might be wise.  A dry sump is also wise in these cases.

Westiebusa did some innovative work with his Hyabusa Engine - see thread:

http://bristolkitcarclub.co.uk/smf2/index.php?topic=3063.msg30887#msg30887

At risk of telling Grandma how to suck eggs - if you need to read up on the principles see:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-consumption/question331.htm

Also many of us are going to East Cornwall in September - would you like to meet us or perhaps meet up at Stoneleigh May 5th/6th?

Regards
Ian

[Seb]

Hi ian thankyou so much for the reply yes it has been a while had alot on which got me abit side tracked also the manta sump seems a struggle to get hold of but still looking hard lol just trying to gather as much info as possible may even decide the ford blacktop engine yet in abit of a pickle so I would say yes I would like to meet you at the event have a chat and a look around hopefully that will steer me in the desirable direction do you have more details on the meet etc thanks again.

[Seb]

Also what would you suggest chassis wise fabricating my own or finding one already made ie whats cheaper bearing in mind buying the chassis already made could possibly be twisted or made cutting corners 

[Iancider]

I have experience of one there:

It is quite high risk unless you have done one before and it caused my friend to give-up.  He was a competent welder but he suffered distortions and was having to remake parts - he eventually lost the will due to the sheer time and effort. 

Remember there are a lot of these out there second-hand, at pretty reasonable prices.  You could use an old locost as a donor vehicle and buy the whole car for well less than the parts.  Strip it and salvage what you can, restore and sell the left-overs.  This is the MX5 trick - buy for £500, use £2,500 worth of parts at new prices with at least 50% of theri life left, and sell the rest for about £500.  So typically engine gearbox and running gear for nothing and the car cost nothing - neat.  All you need is time and £500 to invest for a couple of months while you do it.  And don't forget unfinished projects - many of those - here's a couple about to be sold.....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/locost-kit-car-/111315983091?clk_rvr_id=617775331417

Or this one but it might need an IVA at £450 unless it is on an age related plate
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/locost-kit-car-/151270790006?clk_rvr_id=617770381145

Q plates are always cheaper but you have to be absolutely sure what you are buying - i.e. inpsect and verify everything.  But I often wonder if the Q plate is worth the risk - they could be a liability in running costs and unreliability.

Have you thought about buying one less than perfect (pre-registered) for this summer and improving it next winter - no need to delay your fun that way.

[Seb]

Hi ian thanks again for all the info I gather buying all the metal and welding myself maybe expensive i really like the seven style setup, can that be used with the mx5 drivetrain etc and is a iva really 450 why so much lol thanks.

[Iancider]

Hi Seb,

The IVA is so much because it is about 5 hours and very detailed.  I built a turnkey kit - expensive but new and if you follow the instructions you are pretty likely to pass.  If you build a locost then you have to read the IVA guide cover to cover and test every detail.  I haven't counted myself but there are over 300 points to fail on and some discretinary decisions possible if the tester does not like the look of your work.  If the tester gains doubts he is likely to ask you to prove things that you had not thought about.  They are not being difficult but they must be certain the vehicle is safe for you and for other road users and pedestrians.  Quite a few relaxations are made for kit cars - like no airbags and side impact bars etc.  But the rest is just as difficult as a production car.  They get a batch approval but have to build the core to an identical pattern to avoid testing each one.  As kit cars are individuals they each have to be tested because they are unique.  In the UK we are relatively well off becasue in most of the continent thay ae not even allowed to build kits at all and can either buy "Homologated" identical cars or must import them from the UK.

So again there is a lot of risk in new-build that you could avoid by buying second-hand and modifying or improving.  You are doing the right thing by waiting and understanding before you make your decision.  I would assess that a kit car is probably sold five or six times after it is built so only one in six is a new-build.  About half of the second-hand buyers will have some knowledge and the other half none at all - hence they buy rather than build. 

As you are a mechanic, there is a huge amount of choice out there.  A classic improvement is to buy an old seven-like and to swap the pinto engine for a Zetec with ECU - about £1,500 all up.  At the moment new engines cost less than a refurb of the same engine - so that is an easy choice.  But there is never much wrong with the older simpler engines either - a doddle to maintain and still easy to find parts.  The Pinto was the old standard before the Zetec and the MX5 engine and even earlier the Ford Crossflow engines.

Remember that performance is about power and weight and some of the older kits were realtively heavy.  As time has gone on kits have become more powerful and engine sizes have moved up from 1300-1600 cc to 1600-2000cc normally but in general in only half a tonne - that's plenty.

I am going to suggest a way to make you choice.  Decide what you DONT want first.  Nothing heavy, nothing too flexible, nothing of doubtful origin, no fixed rear-axle etc.  Before you know it that will be 50% of the decision making.  Next choose what you want to use it for - touring, track-days, sunny days only or all year round.  That again will halve the choices.  Next how much risk do you want to take and what form?  I've mentioned new-build and the cost but you could make the risk of a second-hand purchase low by inspecting it carefully.  Just how fast do want to go - they are all pretty fast so you don't need to spend a fortune to get there.  You can buy a car from a manufacurer that has already disappeared reasonably safely because it is made almost entirely out of other cars and few unique parts and even they can be repaired.

I suspect you want to proudly say "I built that" but "I rebuilt that" sounds just as good. 

It would be good to meet you in September and you could enjoy the advice of multiple members and a lot of experience.

Regards
Ian

[Seb]

Hi ian thanks again for all your info seems to be abit clearer now just dont want to make a choice and end up regreting it so like to cover all areas but I think I will buy one like you say part build and just overhaul everything and then make it my own ie diffrent engine etc.The main use will be a few tracks days and some  criusing up and down our lovely country and to meets so the car really has to be a good all rounder with plenty of kick when you want it see choice made lol.

And yes defently let me know near the time or if any others come up along the way be good to get to know you guys and have a chat.

[peterw]

Yes the IVA is £450 as they only plan to test one a day and don't forget it's £90 for a retest on a fail. Think of it as a very strict 8 hour mot.

[peterw]

One advantage for a Q plate I can think of, Exhaust emissions on an MOT is purely a visual check, ie not chucking out black smoke !!!

[SPAXIMUS]

The red top engine is a fantastic unit and easy to fit in a 7. You will need the following,
Bellhousing and arm to mate the engine to a type 9 gearbox.
New spigot bearing
clutch is a sierra cover with a Vauxhall centre plate, all available
Sump
Engine mounts

You are then onto the induction side where you can use many bits off the standard car or throttle bodies. It depends on how far you want to go in the build and development. Exhaust which you can pick up on Ebay or have one made.

The thing you need to decide is what you want the car for. If you use an MX5 it will be a good car and use a lot, but anything with a redtop will leave it for dead on track.

I have two Vauxhall engined Westfields and they are fantastic to drive.

I started collecting all the bits to do another but I am not sure I will now. I have Sump, Bellhousing, brand new megasquirt and harness, GSXR throttle bodies a redtop engine which I might be persuaded to sell for the right price. You would buy a whole MX5 for about the same price.
jeff

[Iancider]

Hi Seb,

It will be the weekend of 6th (afternooon/evening ) and 7th (morning) September.  More details will be posted in a couple of weeks and I will PM you with exact details.

Regards
Ian