Carbon Fibre/rotary Westie

[sanzomat]

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/westfield-working-on-all-new-car/32952

Have you Westfield guys, or anyone else seen this? Carbon fibre chassis sounds light (but expensive!) Rotary engine sounds mad...

[Moleman]

Doing mod's to it could end up being tricky. But I won't say no to one. 

[Iancider]

Weight is more important that power - gaining power is quite easy but losing weight is harder.

200 BHP/tonne is quite impressive but if you half the weight of a 500Kg car/passenger with a 200BHP engine, 400 BHP/Tonne then becomes 800BHP/Tonne.
We have also seen that article that inverts the ratio and talks about Kilogrammes per BHP. 

For most mid-band kit cars they work out at about 4kg per BHP so take away 4kg and is the same as adding 1BHP.  Or chuck a 100 KG passenger in and you are the same losing 25BHP.  So if this Carbon fibre Westie loses 100kg it is like gaining 25 BHP.

OR go on a diet and lose 4 stone of ugly fat and you have just added the equivalent of 6 BHP to your car.

[Crunchie Gears]

Last time I spoke to Martin Ogilvie he told me Westfield had asked if he had the design drawings for the Westfield FW400.  He is such a honest chap he deleted them as per his contract.

That said my brother's and my FW400 is for sale and will be at Williams Autos in Chipping Sodbury anytime soon.  With me and a tank of fuel it is sub 500 kgs and 200 + bhp. It is a joy to drive and out brakes the Ultima, it just does not have the same hammer

I am not sure Westfield will get to 400 kgs again as to do it they used a formula Atlantic Hewland box, which is a little extreme for a road car; at least some would say

[Facial Hair Optional]

Weight is more important that power - gaining power is quite easy but losing weight is harder.

200 BHP/tonne is quite impressive but if you half the weight of a 500Kg car/passenger with a 200BHP engine, 400 BHP/Tonne then becomes 800BHP/Tonne.
We have also seen that article that inverts the ratio and talks about Kilogrammes per BHP. 

For most mid-band kit cars they work out at about 4kg per BHP so take away 4kg and is the same as adding 1BHP.  Or chuck a 100 KG passenger in and you are the same losing 25BHP.  So if this Carbon fibre Westie loses 100kg it is like gaining 25 BHP.

OR go on a diet and lose 4 stone of ugly fat and you have just added the equivalent of 6 BHP to your car.

Dave Gallop was telling me the exact same thing at the ADC meet the other week Ian when I asked you why my car was quick and yet not that powerful. Weight is THE most crucial thing he said (or words to that effect).

Mine works out at 2.8kgs per bhp under that reverse system. Which is great news as I have a fair few lbs/kgs of ugly fat I can lose! I should be able to gain around 5bhp's worth! 

My last Combe passenger would now be costing me only 23bhp but even so he can stay out of my car from now on!!

[Moleman]

Your car may be fast but you haven't factored in the driver ability mate. Anyone can go fast in a straight line but what about going around corners at a good pace? 
I know my car would definitely go quicker if Dino was driving it. 


From now on I will only be taking thin lady passengers then so as not to spoil my power to weight ratio. 

[sanzomat]

Might upset your concentration a bit though???

[Facial Hair Optional]

Your car may be fast but you haven't factored in the driver ability mate. Anyone can go fast in a straight line but what about going around corners at a good pace? 
I know my car would definitely go quicker if Dino was driving it. 


From now on I will only be taking thin lady passengers then so as not to spoil my power to weight ratio. 

Not sure who that reply is for Colin? If it's me I can assure you I have factored that in. I have banged on often enough about my lack of skill! I'm still learning as far as track speed goes for sure. On track, corners are defo a BIG key to lap speed, but even corner speed is better the lighter you are.

And believe me, I have met people who CANNOT go fast even in a straight line!! ha ha! 

I would love someone like Dino or even better Hamilton to drive my car and see what he can do. Personally I'd like Tiff Needell to have a go and show me how he does it! I even looked up online if he's for hire!!

[benchmark51]

Your car may be fast but you haven't factored in the driver ability mate. Anyone can go fast in a straight line but what about going around corners at a good pace? 
I know my car would definitely go quicker if Dino was driving it. 


From now on I will only be taking thin lady passengers then so as not to spoil my power to weight ratio. 

Not sure who that reply is for Colin? If it's me I can assure you I have factored that in. I have banged on often enough about my lack of skill! I'm still learning as far as track speed goes for sure. On track, corners are defo a BIG key to lap speed, but even corner speed is better the lighter you are.

And believe me, I have met people who CANNOT go fast even in a straight line!! ha ha! 

I would love someone like Dino or even better Hamilton to drive my car and see what he can do. Personally I'd like Tiff Needell to have a go and show me how he does it! I even looked up online if he's for hire!!

I believe Jeremy Clarkson might be looking for work.

[Facial Hair Optional]

Too tall Dave!!!

[Moleman]

It wasn't directed at anyone in particular FHO,  just that it is also a big factor in how good your car is. 

[Facial Hair Optional]

Too true Colin. When I said 'quick' I wasn't referring to 'in a straight line' in fact what I meant was around a track or maybe even from point to point across country or whatever, but I didnt mean top end speed or straight line speed - my bad I should have made it clearer.

The discussion I was having with Dave G at the ADC was about what makes a car quick in general, he reckons lightness of weight is key and not power to weight per se. And I have to agree based on what I've learned these last few weeks and months. The Fury has a bigger power to weight than the ASBO (quite a bit bigger) but it just isnt as quick - nowhere near in fact! That is what I was struggling to get my head around, how a car with only 160bhp (and yet is only about 200kgs lighter) can be so much quicker that one with 320bhp. Logic would seem to imply with half the power the lighter car would need to be half the weight to compete but - in this case at least - it just isnt so! (before anyone say it, I'm aware of the effect of gear ratios, diffs, tyres, driver skill, sequential boxes, flat shifters etc make  )

It seems almost as if the weight has a disproportionate positive effect on performance. I'm pretty sure the gist of what Dave was saying agrees with that, basically less weight is often more beneficial than more power (Ian touched on this too in recent post) especially in corners as they can brake later, harder and change direction quicker. In the straight often the more powerful car will pull away a little (but not always) only to be caught again in the corners. I saw it all the time at Combe and in track day vids on youtube. I watched one today where a McLaren P1 was being chased by a BAC Mono, the Mono was all over the P1 in the corners, the P1 pulled out a little on the straights but eventually the Mono took the P1 actually on the corner! I'm pretty sure it was the light weight that gave him that scalp! I did notice also that they both took very different lines through the bends. Here is the video in fact - enjoy it's quite good to watch!! Look out for the fab bit of car control by the Mono driver at around the 3:24 second mark!

[Gary RH7]

Guys, think of the scenario, we go carting, Colin and I are in a same spec. cart. We are on the starting line and put our foot down at exactly the same time. Who will get to the first bend first? When we hit the bend at the same speed albeit me some time later, who will go round the bend and who will carry on in a straight line even though the steering wheel was turned.

Same scenario but with FHO sat on Colin's lap. Who will get to the bend first?
Same scenario but with FHO sat on my lap We wont even reach the corner before Col laps us

We could give it a go to prove it but no lap dancing FHO

That's why I want a head start when we go carting

[Crunchie Gears]

On light weight Colin Chapman made it clear

I have two cars that are relevant in this discussion IMO.

The Westie weighs 400 kgs and is really fun on the track.  It has Citreon AX brakes which are solid and they work so well.  0 -100 - 0 is about 10 second.  The Ultima is 9.7 seconds and weighs 930 Kgs.  The Ultima is quicker but the westie is easier and faster on a twisty circuit.  The westie tops out at 140 mph and the Ultima has down force and the hammer is unbelievable!

The cars need to be driven differently IMO as the Ultima is about getting it straight and hitting the power the Westie is about taking the speed all the way round the track.  The westie is a car I hve loved and so glad I owned it but the way the Ultima delivers the speed round a track is something to mavel at.  I wish I could drive it to the max

[Facial Hair Optional]

Guys, think of the scenario, we go carting, Colin and I are in a same spec. cart. We are on the starting line and put our foot down at exactly the same time. Who will get to the first bend first? When we hit the bend at the same speed albeit me some time later, who will go round the bend and who will carry on in a straight line even though the steering wheel was turned.

Same scenario but with FHO sat on Colin's lap. Who will get to the bend first?
Same scenario but with FHO sat on my lap We wont even reach the corner before Col laps us

We could give it a go to prove it but no lap dancing FHO

That's why I want a head start when we go carting

I'm all for team spirit Gary but poor old Colin would never get over it!! He'd be on crutches for months for one thing!

[Facial Hair Optional]

....the Westie is about taking the speed all the way round the track.... 

I definitely hear you on that one CG. I can feel my gut telling me exactly that when I'm out in the ASBO. Whether I can develop the skills needed at my age remains to be seen. Since I got older and had children I now also have 'fear', something I never had in driving when I was young. Stupidy so in fact, lost count of the times I almost killed myself 

One thing is for sure, I will NOT be searching for the cars limits on the public road, it is just waaaaay too quick to be safe. Not many cars scare me (when I'm at the wheel I mean - as a passenger I'm crap!) but this car makes me shake!!

[Crunchie Gears]

....the Westie is about taking the speed all the way round the track.... 

I definitely hear you on that one CG. I can feel my gut telling me exactly that when I'm out in the ASBO. Whether I can develop the skills needed at my age remains to be seen. Since I got older and had children I now also have 'fear', something I never had in driving when I was young. Stupidy so in fact, lost count of the times I almost killed myself 

One thing is for sure, I will NOT be searching for the cars limits on the public road, it is just waaaaay to quick to be safe. Not many cars scare me (when I'm at the wheel I mean - as a passenger I'm crap!) but this car makes me shake!!

That sounds like a proper car!

Oh, and I plan to live the rest of my life outrageously and I think you are never to old  . To quote a song "I'm not as good as I once was, but I am good once, as I ever been".    

[Iancider]

Ry Cooder sang:

"It takes me all night to do what I used to do all night"

Ian