Advice on K series 1.8 VVC

[andygtm]

Hello all I am on the look out for a 1.8 VVC engine and would appreciate any advice. There seems to be few types to be had ranging from the bees knees trophy engine putting out 160bhp which I have to admit is out of my price range. This makes the 145bhp version the most likely candidate being more plentyful and cheaper too. Ebay has been my only source of finding one at the moment and most come without any ancillaries or the gearbox. So will any of my 1.4 GTI mpi parts fit the VVC? At my first meet talking to Dave he seemed to be pretty clued up on these engines and his onyx was running one too along with Kens 5exi. If any body knows of a VVC for sale could you please let me know and if its alright with you Dave can I bombard you with questions next time I see you.

['The Gaffer']

Dave and Ken really are the guru's of these engines

[andygtm]

I am looking at a P reg MGF 1.8 VVC with 86K on the clock. Comes complete with all ancillaries + gearbox and ECU on ebay. Are they good with this sort of mileage?  I will be renewing the clutch, head gasket and cambelt as a matter of course.

[dave_bence]

The 145PS VVC engine would be a great upgrade for your car. The 160PS version is a lot more expensive to buy and is much more complicated to wire up. Its extra power is at the top end of the rev range - the 145 version has more grunt in the mid range, which is where you need it most.

A VVC engine with that mileage should be OK, if it has been well looked after and regularly serviced. I'd never buy an engine that I haven't seen and heard running, so perhaps try a few local breakers and ask if they have any suitable donors still running. In the past I've dealt with All Car Spares in Staple Hill, 0117 9047508 (they supplied my VVC engine) and PA Salvage in Warmley, 0117 9602990.

You won't be able to use much from your existing engine, so you could try and sell it as a complete unit. When you buy a VVC engine, make sure you get the inlet manifold complete with injectors and throttle body, the undamaged engine wiring loom, the engine management ECU, the Multi Function Unit (aka relay pack), the alternator and its mounting, and the ignition coil pack on the rear of the engine.

The engine ECU is coded to the Rover/MGF security ECU (the 5AS box). To make the engine run and if you want to retain the donor car's security immobiliser, you'll need the engine ECU, the 5AS unit and the remote locking "blippers" from the donor car – they must be a matched set.
Alternatively, if you don't want the immobiliser function, you can just use the engine ECU and have it reprogrammed to accept the signal from a small signal generator box. Talon Sportscars (01509 842740) sell the box and do the programming (they did mine). It cost about £100 and it's a very neat and simple way of doing things.

Mechanically, the VVC engines are very easy to fit. You'll need a flywheel, clutch and thrust bearing from a 1995 – 1999 1600cc Rover 200, then your existing R65 gearbox will bolt straight onto the 1800 engine. You won't need to change drive shafts, gear linkages etc.

There were two types of gearboxes fitted to early K-Series engine, the R65 which was fitted to 1100 to 1600 engines and the stronger PG1 that was fitted to the 1800 engines. The R65 should be fine in a light car like the GTM. I used one with the VVC engine for a year including several track days with no problems. If you do knacker a R65 'box, they're as cheap as chips to buy. I eventually replaced my R65 with a PG1 because I wanted a 'box with a LSD. It was quite a lot of work to do the conversion, but well worth it in a front wheel drive car. I doubt you'll need a LSD in a mid-engined car.

Hope this info is useful, but if you've any more questions, ask away. I'll email you with my phone number, if you'd rather talk than type.

[andygtm]

Thanks for the info Dave. I never would of taken all this in verbally. Glad to hear you say the 145VVC would be a better option for the GTM. Seems you need more than just the engine regarding the electrical side of things so that has saved me heartache already. It would be nice to hear the possible engine running but none are available locally and my impatience will get the better of me as usual. Looking at a complete engine and gearbox on ebay for £400 which seems to be a very good price. I will give those breakers a ring too so in the meantime I better sit tight as my 1.4 is running fine anyway. I just want more power sooner rather than later.    

[andygtm]

Hooray I have got a VVC engine with hopefully most of the bits I need (thanks to Dave's advice). Glad to of got it now as I won't be spending so much time looking for one. I will spend the next few months enjoying the GTM over the summer then maybe swop engines during the winter.

[sanzomat]

Re-awakening this post as I'm going down a similar route, also with a GTM.
I've purchased a 1.8 VVC K series. Its a 143 mems 2 version from a 1998 MGF. Its done 68k miles from new and is believed to have had an uprated head gasket plus water pump and belts done at around 50k. Runs sweetly (based on a video sent by the seller), no VVC rattle, oil and water are in the right places and separate from eachother. I'll be getting the engine together with a PG1 gearbox, pair of drive shafts, inlet and exhaust manifolds (with injectors and throttle body), ECU, 5AS, complete intact engine wiring loom, alternator, starter motor, the gearchange cables and selector/gear stick (so I can replace the rod change from my current R65 box).

I'm aware I can keep the R65 box (as long as I get the right flywheel) but in many ways I'd rather change the lot, mainly because the rod gearchange is a bit imprecise on the current set up. The problem is that the GTM spyder (and Libra) used a special bracket to attach the PG1 gearbox to a metro R65 bracket and these specially fabricated brackets can't be sourced from GTM/Westfield any more so I'd have to get one made (beyond my skills) - photos of the brackets attached.






The other advice I'd like from any K-Series VVC specialists out there is should I just fit it as it comes (as it seems to be working fine - if it aint broke....) or should I strip it down and re-build it first? If the latter are there any easy/cheap upgrades to do whilst it is in bits? Maybe a bit of DIY porting/polishing? I don't want to spend much and I'm kind of thinking that 143 is probably plenty anyway as I've been relatively happy with the 110 from the 1.6.
If I do strip, what head gasket is recommended? Other sites suggest not going for MLS but not sure why, possibly because its thicker so needs a deepish skim?

My other big decision is whether to crack on with the swap soon and hope I get it in and working before all the upcoming events or wait until the autumn!

[Bulldog Bri]

My other big decision is whether to crack on with the swap soon and hope I get it in and working before all the upcoming events or wait until the autumn!

Wait till after Stoneleigh, if your planning on going

[Camber Dave]

I could probably make you a bracket.

I would either need a pattern to copy or a create a drawing from the size and orientation of the bolts and displacement from the mounting.

The plates would then be laser cut and welded.

Based on you pics the laser cutting would be about £25 (they always send a quotation) and welding £20 (its the gas and bottle rental - sorry)

Dave

[sanzomat]

I could probably make you a bracket.

I would either need a pattern to copy or a create a drawing from the size and orientation of the bolts and displacement from the mounting.

The plates would then be laser cut and welded.

Based on you pics the laser cutting would be about £25 (they always send a quotation) and welding £20 (its the gas and bottle rental - sorry)

Dave

Thanks Dave,
I've found via the GTM owners club the contact details of the guy who made all the metal bits for GTM. Apparently he still has all the drawings and jigs and bits and stuff. Others have had bits made just by quoting the part number and GTMOC has also provided me with the part number! Aren't clubs/forums great!
I've left him a voicemail today so I'll see what he can do first. If that avenue doesn't work I'll be in touch... Cheers, Dave.

[Krazyken]

With the head gasket it's a case of if it aint broke dont fix it.  The MLS was developed by Land Rover as a fix when the liners dropped, it fixed the symptoms rather than the cause.  If you have a seasoned block that has already been through enough heat cycles and the cast iron liners still stand proud by 4-5 thou then the standard rubber gasket which is compressed to make the seal when the head is torqued up is still the best solution.

If its extra performance you are after, first is to check you have the upgraded 52mm throttle body not the early 48mm plastic one.  As Daves post says above there are a number of ways you can improve the ECU.  The main gains will come from improving engine breathing as the standard ECU will learn to increase the fuel along with the extra air.  The steps to be taken in this order as done on my Marlin 5exi are: -

MG TF 160 Larger air box for better air intake volume.
Correct length 4-2-1 exhaust pipe as stated on Dave Andrews website www.dvapower.com
Fully ported head from Dave Andrews & retime the VVC mechs

If all of the above are done correctly you should see 175-180 BHP but it is also advisable to uprate the pistons to the later 160 pistons as the 143 pistons are weaker and can crack between the rings at prolonged high revs.  I had all of this done to the Marlin and I could thrash it all day and it still purred home as though it had been loved and cherished all its life.  Never had a breakdown and humbled far more expensive machinery on track.

Sadly my Marlin met its end in the metal barriers at Combe at 110mph when I had a wheel rim fail on the quickest part of the circuit (where else) the only parts I was able to salvage were the alternator, throttle body and the head,  Everthing else was scrap.  If you are interested in going this route I have most of a spare engine in my garage incl the essential head as above and throttle body which I might sell as I may never use it again.  PM me if you are interested.

[Iancider]

I have been totally impressed by the depth of knowledge shown here and thought I would chuck in something interesting, not well known and totally irrelevant to do with engines.

The longest lived production engine still in service is......

The L series Bentley engine now to appear in the the Mulsanne Speed.  It first went into service in 1959 and has been in continuous production since.  It is much the same engine as it originally was when all other manufacturers have had to chuck engines away and start again.  The head is re-ported and it has an ECU now and it has a few external add-ons to control emissions.  But this gutsy engine was always smooth and under-stressed with multi-valve technology and it is still push-rod which is ideal for a 2000 rpm now 6.75 litre engine, up from 6.5.  It will still propel 2.7 tonnes from 0-60 in under 5 seconds!

So who is going to be the first to put this wonderful old-timer in a kit car?

Ian

[Camber Dave]

Also off topic but prompted by Ian's post

When I was at the Autosport show I encountered the Alvis recreation project.
They have added electonic gismo's to their 1936 design to comply with current emmisions requirements.

At about £1/4Million a bit out of my price range..... But less than 1/2 the price of a restored one.

http://www.alviscarcompany.com/

[Iancider]

Wow beautiful,

Every car Alvis made was a beauty.  If I had a classic car it would be an Alvis

Ian