GTM Winter Upgrades

[sanzomat]

So, A bit more progress with the Spyder's winter upgrades.

I've now got the old engine out by positioning the engine onto a dolly and lifting the car off it:



I've also removed the old rattle rod gear change. There was so much wear and slop in the various linkages and the rods are about 6 ft long so its amazing I ever found a gear at all!

I've now adapted the MGF selector end to make it narrower and to make the cables 75mm longer:




This what the MGF selector looks like before modification (with a GTM bracket that is no longer available):




Only trouble is how many pipes and wires are in the tunnel that I'll now have to move to fit in the selector and this pic is after I've already taken off the main front to back radiator pipes!




I've also taken out the radiator housing and altered it to fit the bigger rad. This pic is with the old rad still fitted to the housing. The Passat rad is has about 20% more surface area and is twice as thick as the Metro rad and I now have a 12" fan rather than 10". There will probably be some alterations to the pipework to resolve but can't tell until its back on the car.

[Lucky Ed]

Good work Dave, the new rad looks good with space for a second fan if you've got room in the engine bay

[sanzomat]

Good work Dave, the new rad looks good with space for a second fan if you've got room in the engine bay

Thanks Ed. Might be room for another fan in the engine bay but the rad is at the front

[Lucky Ed]

oh yeah - DOH

[sanzomat]

A bit more progress. I'm re-using the exhaust manifold from the old engine as it has a six bolt downpipe flange and the one form the replacement engine has a four bolt flange. On taking it off I found the welds in the main flange were huge and narrowing down the size considerably so out with the dremel and burr again.
Before:

After:


The engine is now physically in the car and working through connecting everything up. Before I can sort out anything running down the tunnel I need to sort out the gear change. I've now got the heavily modified MGF selector bracket installed which involved getting to some really hard to reach bolts to detach the P clips that were neatly holding all the pipes and wires in the tunnel and cutting a rectangular hole in the tunnel top for the top part of the selector to pass through. I drilled and tapped holes in the sides of the bracket and the tunnel and supported the bracket using M6 threaded rod all the way through with washers and nuts inside and outside the tunnel as this gives a much more sturdy fixing than just bolts.





Next job is to re-attach all the pipes and wires down the tunnel.

['The Gaffer']

Nice work

[damouk]

Random question but how big is the selector mechanism, it looks like it might be the right way around to work on the v-storm, it would be good to leave the cables under the car

[sanzomat]

Not sure  - next time I'm under the car I'll measure it! (The car is at MiL's.) Didn't measure it before I cut bits off it though!

At a guess I'd say as it is currently about 220-250mm long and about 80mm wide. As fitted to an MGF its probably about 280-300mm long and 120mm wide.

If you are fixing it above the floor you'd need to at least leave the front and back brackets on (i cut off the front one) but you could still cut off the side flanges to save width.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MG-TF-1-6-1-8-GEAR-SELECTOR-CABLES-LONG-SHORT-NOT-MGF-/321936499872?hash=item4af4e924a0:g:2BYAAOSw9mFWH3Ik

You can get a selector and a pair of cables (used) for around £30.

[sanzomat]

Should have said that the shorter of the two cables is longer on MGF than TF if that matters to you. On the MG's the cables run down the tunnel then the long cable goes over the gearbox and the shorter cable goes under. The cables have a male M6 thread both ends so easy to adapt to whatever the gearbox end fittings are on the scoob.

[damouk]

Hmm it sounds like it is a little bit bigger than the Toyota one I have, maybe in need to  look at making my own

[sanzomat]

Hmm it sounds like it is a little bit bigger than the Toyota one I have, maybe in need to  look at making my own

Checked the dims and my guesses as above are pretty much right - prior to any cutting the MGF selector is about 300x120. Mine, after cutting down, is 225x80

[sanzomat]

Managed a bit more progress today. Still suffering from a cold and a twingey back but wearing a kidney belt helped a lot (used to wear it whilst riding the motorbike to keep my lower back warm).

New rad fixed and plumbed in. All the pipes and wires down the tunnel are in place. Gear cables connected at the gearbox end and all gears engage correctly. I bought a leather gear lever gaiter as the previous circular rubber bellows one is too small to fit over the rectangular hole - made up a wooden base for its elasticated bottom to fit over - looks really neat.

Got the driveshafts back on and have filled the gearbox with oil.

Have fixed the engine steady bar - bracket needed a bit of modification...

Exhaust back on with just mm of clearance to the steady bar bracket at the gearbox end. A bit of metal taken off the bracket with the angle grinder and hopefully they now won't bang into eachother as the engine rocks a bit.

That wiring is getting near the top of the "to do" list now...

[Iancider]

Tell your wife she is a lovely lady letting you do this!

Good progress

Happy New Year
Ian

[sanzomat]

Tell your wife she is a lovely lady letting you do this!

Good progress

Happy New Year
Ian

She certainly is! No car work between Christmas eve and new years eve though so plenty of family time (although I can't promise that if my back had hurt less I wouldn't have been in the garage!) HNY to you too, and everyone else.

This is how the new gear lever gaiter looks:



Crop from the best image of the old rubber bellows - hadn't taken many of the inside!

[Gary RH7]

Looks like you are using the exact same electric fan as I am.
Hope they work

[damouk]

I must admit I bought a cheepie fan of ebay (looks like the black one) it isn't a patch on the SPAL one's I have on the radiators,  but then it was 1/5 the cost as well..

[sanzomat]

At only £15 I thought it was worth a try as the equivalent Spal one was about £90! I connected it up straight to the battery to check whether it was set up to blow or suck before fitting it (suck as standard out of the box). It certainly produced a decent draft, very quiet and no vibration.

[damouk]

Yep that was my thought when I bought mine, it's a shame the Spal ones are so expensive! Sounds like yours is a better one that mine, mine is quite noisy.

[Gary RH7]

Mine is a little noisy but I cant hear it when I am driving and only just hear it when I stop.
Had to laugh when I re-positioned the rad and went to test it by turning the stat down. Spent a good half an hour trying to find out what I had done wrong only to realise it was so cold in the garage for the stat to cut in ...idiot

[sanzomat]

A bit more progress. The new steering rack is now installed - seemed like a good time to do it before the seats go back in and whilst the front clam is relatively empty with the battery box removed.

Wasn't looking forward to this job (as you can probably tell from the fact I bought the new rack ages ago and only just got around to fitting it.

The bolts that hold the rack to the bulkhead pass down into a box section of GRP at the front of the main tub. This box section has a couple of holes (one in each footwell) that are just about big enough to get a hand in to fix the nuts for the rack and the wishbone mounts but in the original build these tasks would be done early on before other stuff gets in the way! The holes are covered with hardboard glued on to the grp and carpeted over on the kick plate so the carpet and the hardboard need to come off. You end up lying on the floor of the car, shoulders under the dash and one hand stretched out, through the pedals and through the opening into the box section. You can just about get a finger tip onto the nuts. Spanners can only turn a short way and as you can only just hook a finger over the spanner its hard to apply any force - can't move your arm so all done with just the fingers! Here's a pic but doesn't quite do it justice! This with the link section of the steering column already out.


Next problem is that the rack is fitted to the tub before the various grp panels that form the front of the car are fixed so technically the whole front would need to come off to change the rack as there isn't clearance between the inner wing and the main monocoque.


My cunning plan was to cut a small section of the inner wing away to let the rack come forward enough to let the splined input shaft come out of the tub then slide it out sideways. I worked out how much I needed to cut away by measuring the length of the splined part on the new rack and marked out/cut the grp. I cut it in one neat(ish) pice with a padsaw with the intention that I can fix the same bit back in with a few ali plates. Only trouble was that the old rack has an input shaft about 15mm longer so the amount I cut out wasn't enough. I tried taking the boot off the rack and opening out the hole a bit more for the narrower tie rod to fit into but in the end had to reach in with the angle grinder and cut 10mm off the end of the input shaft. anyway. Managed to get the old rack out and the new one in. just need to fill in the hole again!

[damouk]

Sounds time consuming to me with the spanner, I've been there before myself, takes a lot of patience, a good time to do it tho did you put a quick or standard rack back in?

[sanzomat]

Went for a quick(er) rack. There wasn't actually anything wrong with the old one but it was a bit on the slow side being a standard Metro rack - 3.6 turns lock to lock. The standard upgrade for these GTMs is to use a MGTF rack which is 2.7 turns lock to lock with the same throw and supposedly the same physical dimensions. The main tube is definitely the same but I now know the input shaft is longer on the Metro one - fits okay in the same column adapter though. Went with new track rod ends too.

It has to be a LHD rack upside down because the rack is forward of the axle whereas its behind the axle on MGF/Metro's. LHD racks are hard to get hold of in this country! If it was a RHD rack you'd have to steer the opposite way which could be fun - once did an obstacle course in a landrover that had been adapted to steer opposite - total mind screw, especially reversing!

[damouk]

A bit like the push bikes you used to see on the telly program hosted by someone who we cant talk about these days.

A turn less is going to help...... you could always fit steering stops instead

[sanzomat]

Another update but no pictures 'cos the current work doesn't look like much at all, just trying to get the wiring to work. I'm fighting against the improvisations that the previous owner did whilst changing from the original 1.4 metro engine to the 1.6 that was in when I bought it. I've been totally baffled by some of the wires that don't correspond to any of the colours on the body loom or to the wiring diagrams I've found online. One wire in particular changed colour twice along its length so was impossible to trace until I'd unwound all the tape from that section of the loom. For most of its length it is orange and this doesn't feature in any of the wiring diagrams so I had to follow it along its whole journey from the engine bay at the rear to inside the dash. It was routed inside the car (unlike everything else that is through a flexi conduit in the tunnel). I eventually traced it to the 5AS module which for those not inducted into the world of MG-Rover is the alarm/immobiliser module. I should have recognised it as it is the same wire that caused my breakdown and recovery home from the Lock Keeper a year ago! The dodgy joint I found then was where it changed from orange back to the colour it should have been (yellow/red). I now know its the wire that shares a signal with the main ECU to allow the engine to keep running once it is first started.

I was flummoxed by the fuel pump wiring for a while until I eventually found that the relay needs its own separate live feed on the MGF but it takes its live feed from the same live that feeds the other three relays in the same black box on other models. Once spliced into the other lives the fuel pump then works!

The one I'm currently puzzling over is a black and white wire that I've now worked out is the relay coil earth for the starter relay. It is supposed to connect via the body loom to the 5AS unit where the starter relay earth is activated by the immobiliser so the starter won't operate unless its is disarmed. There was no corresponding wire in the body loom but there were some wires in the body loom connector that weren't doing anything so I wondered whether the previous guy had used one of these to connect it. One of these matched its location on the connector plug so I thought it was worth a try however much I didn't like the idea of joining a black/white to a green/blue. This did allow me to energise the starter motor and get the engine to turn over (but not fire) but this happened when the key was turned to position 2, not 3!! and I also found by accidentally knocking the hazard switch that you could make the engine crank by switching on the hazards!! Clearly this wasn't the right wire. I went back inside the dash and found that the 5AS connector had not got a wire connected to the correct pin so clearly it had been working without it before. After a bit more reading of various MG-Rover related forums my next strategy is to simply connect this to a permanent earth in the engine bay. Watch this space for the result. Might need a fire extinguisher for this one!

I've got a couple of wires in the body loom that aren't connecting to anything at all which is a slight concern as the body loom was a GTM item so can't see why they would have put unnecessary wires in. They definitely weren't connected in the 1.6 set-up and that seemed to work so hopefully they are redundant.

[benchmark51]

ah, see wot you mean. lol

[Moleman]

I have found some redundant wire in the westy loom recently only to find they were spare earth wires. Which helped get my heated windscreen working again as I had a dodgy earth connection on it so I used one of them & it worked a treat. If you need a bigger bit of ali plate mate just let me know what size. 

[Iancider]

Spare wires are not unusual in larger volume kit cars.  Looms are expensive to commission so they tend to create one loom to fit all models with all options.  So spare wires probably just mean your car does not use all of the options that were possible in that loom.

And here is an idea for you - a cable tracer.  This works best with an open wire rather than a connected one but even if it is connected you can get a signal albeit a weak one.  It consists of an audio frequency oscillator and a tone tracing probe.  The oscillator would be best connected to the target wire in the loom and the other wire to a good earth some distance from the car.  Now bring the probe near to where you think the signal might go and it becomes strong when you are right on top of it.  If the wire is a chassis connection then the whole chassis will radiate signal.  For proof positive you can disconnect the wire at both end and use an ohmmeter or a continuity tester to prove it is the same wire.  With this technique you will not have to worry if it changes colour along its length.

This one is cheap as chips and there are better quality ones on e-bay if you want. Ian
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/350585937672?adgroupid=13585920426&hlpht=true&hlpv=2&rlsatarget=pla-131843261346&adtype=pla&ff3=1&lpid=122&poi=&ul_noapp=true&limghlpsr=true&ff19=0&googleloc=1006715&device=c&chn=ps&campaignid=207297426&crdt=0&ff12=67&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff14=122&viphx=1&ops=true&ff13=80

[sanzomat]

That cable tracer thingy looks a good idea. Touch wood I'm almost there though with good old fashioned ripping everything apart, getting frustrated, kicking a few things, cutting wires unnecessarily, joining them back together again, cussing some more....

I've just been lent something that would have been useful to have from the start - the MG-Rover RAVE manual. Fantastic tome and easy to navigate. Within 5 minutes I've confirmed what it took me 3 evenings and two lunch breaks to work out using first principles and the internet - that black and white wire is definitely the earth for the starter relay and in normal set-ups would be earthed via the immobiliser but it should be perfectly safe (but less secure) to take it straight to an earth. That should allow the starter to operate. May not get a chance to find out until Sunday though. Suspense is killing me....

[sanzomat]

I have found some redundant wire in the westy loom recently only to find they were spare earth wires. Which helped get my heated windscreen working again as I had a dodgy earth connection on it so I used one of them & it worked a treat. If you need a bigger bit of ali plate mate just let me know what size. 

Cheers Colin. In the end I realised I had some bits of matching red grp that I cut off the radiator ducting to fit the bigger rad so I cut that up into plates instead. All fixed now. I'm sure those bits of ali will come in handy for something so thanks for supplying them. Found out today we are through to the next stage of the IRaAT building at Airbus so might be up there a bit more for soon...

[Facial Hair Optional]

That cable tracer thingy looks a good idea. Touch wood I'm almost there though with good old fashioned ripping everything apart, getting frustrated, kicking a few things, cutting wires unnecessarily, joining them back together again, cussing some more....

Suspense is killing me....

This made me laugh Dave!! Brilliant!! Reminded me of why I gave up fiddling with car electrics a long time ago!!!

[sanzomat]

So, on Saturday afternoon I got to a place where I was totally confident that everything in the engine bay is wired correctly. Still not working properly - cranking as soon as the battery leads are attached!! With the engine loom disconnected from the body loom I probed the various connecters and nine of the eleven were showing about 2v below battery voltage even with the ignition key out and the immobiliser armed. Some of those pins should only come live when the ignition is on (and when the immobilser is disarmed) and the crank signal should obviously only come live when the key is in the crank position and the immobiliser disarmed. I hadn't changed any wiring at the front of the car other than wiring in the new radiator fan and that was a simple 2 wire job and even I couldn't have got that wrong. I had taken the dash off to replace the 5AS immobilser (as they are matched to the ECU so I'd got the one that came with my engine/ECU) so it was conceivable that I'd disturbed something inside the dash so today I set about finding some crossed wires. With the battery attached, the engine loom disconnected and the hazard switch switched on nothing was happening (using the weird behaviour of the hazards as clue), so I wiggled whole chunks of loom and occasionally the indicators would start flashing. Another clue! I found an area of the loom that had the biggest impact and dug deeper to find a cluster of bullet connectors (the type with the clear plastic "condoms"). Here the gentlest of wiggles would bring the indicators on so I knew I was getting close. I found that there was a direct battery 12v wire that was terminated in a male bullet with the condom slipped right back so the live end was exposed. The kind of thing that would have shorted to earth on a steel car and popped a fuse but not so with GRP. Some of the other bullet connectors also had there condoms displaced and the live end was obviously touching them and making those circuits live. Bingo! I spent a while sorting these issues out and the hazards would now work reliably. I probed the engine loom connector and all the pins were now working as they were supposed to. I plugged back in the engine loom, took a deep breath, disarmed the immobilser  and turned the key - 1st click and radio came on, 2nd click and the dash lit up properly and a short whirr from the fuel pump. Turn to crank and the engine turns over and with just a short crank she fires up!!!

So, I'm now a very happy bunny. Having bought the engine off ebay I had been worrying for months whether it would be a bag of spanners but, touch wood, it seems to be running fine, no smoke, no odd noises. Warmed it up gently with a few gentle revs to 2-3,000. When it was warm I gave to some decent revs and it was happy to go right up to 7,000 so the VVC must be working (as if the VVC mechs don't respond correctly the ECU limits it to 5,500). Early to say for sure but there are no early signs of head gasket leaks.

I reckon a few more hours and she'll be back on the road - Seats to go back in, steering wheel back on, wheels back on, rear clam back on, off the axle stands and then a road test!!

[damouk]

Good work Sherlock, so did you replace the bullets with solder joints?

Excellent news on the motor as well!

[sanzomat]

Good work Sherlock, so did you replace the bullets with solder joints?

Would have liked to but the access is sh*te to that area. Its near to where the section of loom passes through the front bulkhead and joins the main dash loom. I expect that is why it was done with bullets, so it can be separated and withdrawn. I think the only way to get in there to do it properly would be to take the windscreen out (and as its bonded it would be a pro job). I've pulled all the sleeves back into place and taped them up. The odd end with nowhere to go has been folded back and well wrapped in tape. Not ideal but I'll know where to look if I have trouble again.

[Iancider]

Excellent to hear that you have it running.

Have you thought of heatshrink sleeving for the troublesome bullets?  tehre is a melting innner wall type too if you really dont want it to slip BUT is does depend on you having room to get some heat to it all.

Ian

[Moleman]

Nice work Dave. 

[sanzomat]

So close I thought I'd have a go this evening. Got everything back together (well, except for re-gluing the carpet to the kick plate and installing the passenger seat), Wheels back on, off the axle stands, rear clam back on. Started her up to go for a test drive but found I couldn't engage any gears. It seems that the clutch slave cylinder isn't moving far enough. Might just need bleeding but can't see why as I didn't disturb the hydraulics, just unbolted it from the Metro gearbox and bolted it onto the MGF box. I suppose the piston rod could be longer on the MGF to take up some slack. I didn't check 'cos they looked identical so assumed they would be. I've got the MGF cylinder so easy to swap. Even easier to just swap the rods. Anyway, not driveable just yet so still some more fun to have messing with it!

[Lucky Ed]

Great work Dave, just in time for some nice weather - I hope

[Facial Hair Optional]

Wednesday is set to be sunny and dry Dave!!! Take a day off work!! 

[sanzomat]

Anyone know what the typical stroke of a slave cylinder is? Mine seems to be giving about 20-25mm? I was just wondering if the clutch might be stuck to the flywheel or pressure plate as it had been stood for so long. Might try some jolting before I go bleeding.

[Facial Hair Optional]

I was just wondering if the clutch might be stuck to the flywheel or pressure plate as it had been stood for so long. Might try some jolting before I go bleeding.

I had the same thing happen to my plus 2 Elan back in the early 80's when I rebuilt the engine Dave. Eventually freed it by getting the engine and box as hot as possible and jolting it free. Covered the whole bonnet in rugs and towels, disconnected the fan etc and let it idle til it was red hot (not literally!) I seem to recall, then it jolted free.